Looking for more infor on 514 sqdn and Lancaster LL727

I am trying to find more information on my Father's (E.G.RIPPINGALE)squadron 514 and his Lancaster LL727 which crashed at St Eusoye 20km NE of Beauvais.

As records go (until I can verify with national archives and my Father's log book) They took off on the evening of 8th June headinf for Massy Palaiseau. Just before the target, a German fighter came up from behind and started firing, Lou kept the plane on course until my Dad had the target in site and let the bombs go. Just then the fighter opened fire and hit the Lancaster. Lou Greenburgh (Pilot) shouted to bail out in which my dad and the rear gunner did, Lou then shouted to hold on as he thought he could keep control of the plane but too late they had jumped. Lou kept control of the plane until it crashed at St Eusoye 20km NE of Beauvais. He and the rest of the crew bailed out. My Dad landed in a forest in Saulx-Les-Chartres and wandered round all night not knowing where he was going. In the morning he was spotted by a young boy called Claude who shouted to him "English?" My Dad nodded and the boy run off, returning later with Serge Boldrini (my Uncle) who was French resistance. He took my dad back to a house called "La Tours Prends Garde" which was a safe house and also used for prisoners on parole. My Mother used to visit the house to bring food and supplies and thats where she met my Dad. He survived a raid on the house by German officers looking for him but they failed to spot a small room hidden by a hanging tapestry. Unfortunately my uncle Serge was shot in the Metro Pasteur by the Germans. There is a plaque there and at La Tours Prends Garde in his memory.

I visited the house in August which has been renovated. The hiding place is still there. Amazing! I couldn't imagine what it was like.

I am now trying to find the exact crash site of LL727 so I can go visit the area next year. The information I have is Amiens Map reference B5/N15 which without the map is useless. If anyone has this map and could scan it or translate the coords to Lat and Lon would be appreciated.

Other information I found.......................LL727 was a Mk.11 and was delivered to No.514 Sqdn 20Jan44. Incomplete operational history. However, it is recorded that LL727 took part in the Key Operations against Berlin 27/28Jan44; Berlin 30/31Jan44; Berlin 15/16Feb44; Schweinfurt 24/25Feb44; Berlin 24/25Mar44; Duisburg 21/22May44; Massy-Palaiseau 7/8Jun44-Lost. When lost this aircraft had a total of 184 hours. LL727 was one of two No.514 Sqdn Lancasters lost on this operation. See: DS822 Airborne 0027 8Jun44 from Waterbeach to bomb rail facilities. Cause of loss not established. Crashed at St-Eusoye (Oise), 20 km NE of Beauvais. The sole casualty, F/S Stromberg, is buried at Amiens in St-Pierre Cemetery. F/O L.Greenburgh Evd W/O L.J.W.Sutton (P2) Evd Sgt F.Collingwood PoW F/S R.Fox Evd F/S E.G.Rippingale Evd F/S G.H.Stromberg Inj Sgt F.J.Casy PoW Sgt R.J.Woosnam PoW There is an unconfirmed report that Sgt F.J.Casy evaded until captured 6Jul44 and interned in Camp L7. PoW No.384, with Sgt F.Collingwood, PoW No.80059 F/S G.H.Stromberg died of his injuries in Amien Hospital 9 or 10Jun44. F/S R.J.Woosnam initially evaded until captured 3Jul44 and interned in Camp L7, PoW No.424. "

I Love to hear from anyone who can add to this

Mark Rippingale

 

:found this..hope this has some use,regards,ray..
Aircraft Type: Armstrong Whitworth Lancaster Mk II
Serial number: LL727
Registration / Name: JI-C2
Shot down?: the night from 07 to 08 June 1944 at a mission station of Massy (Palaiseau), south of Paris
Location: crash near Saint-Eusoye, 20km northeast of Beauvais, Oise, France.I'm sure someone here will point you in a more positive direction...

 

Mark,

I don't know how close you are to the National Archives at Kew but I would recommend you pull up the evasion questionnaires filed by P/O Greenburgh and W/O Sutton.

Some of these reports are very detailed and others not so but without checking you can't be sure. I have one that gave me the precise address of the farmer who helped one of the airmen I am researching and that farm is still there today, as are the 87 year old neighbors who helped the man in question.

In another case the evading airman was a navigator and wrote down precisely where his aircraft crashed. Lats and Longs.

Greenburgh's file in the WO/208 series, subseries 3348, number is 321. Sutton's is in WO/208, subseries 3349, no report number given.

They are usually in chronological or alphabetical order. My last visit there found them all over the place so if they aren't where they are supposed to be in each folder take the few minutes and go through each folder looking for misfiled reports. These two files are there as Oliver Clutton - Brock made use of them in his latest book, "RAF Evaders - The Comprehensive Story of Thousands of Escapers and Their Escape Lines, Western Europe, 1940 - 1945" published earlier this year.

Who knows? They just may just have the information you are seeking.

As I'm sure you know Lou Greenburgh was a Canadian serving in the RAF. I've attached this only out of interest. It comes from the Honours and Awards database set up by Hugh Halliday of Ottawa, Ontario:

GREENBURGH, F/O Louis (49803) - Distinguished Flying Cross - No.514 Squadron - awarded as per London Gazette dated 14 March 1944. Born in Winnipeg, 14 March 1916; enlisted in RAF, 21 July 1937 as 2nd Class Aircraft Hand General Duties (mechanic, service number 542422) and posted to RAF Depot, Henlow; to Station Manston, 22 October 1937; to No.3 School of Technical Training, Manston, 2 September 1938 (remustered to Aircraft Hand/Fitter Mechanic/Rigger on same day); to No.3 Wing, St.Athan, 1 November 1938; remustered as Fitter/Mechanic Group 2 and reclassified Aircraftman 2nd Class, 13 July 1939; to No.37 Squadron, 21 July 1939; reclassified Aircraftman 1st Class, 1 December 1939; to No.242 Squadron, 20 March 1940; to No.215 Squadron, 10 April 1940; to No.11 OTU, 18 May 1940; remustered Fitter/Mechanic (Engines), 21 November 1940; reclassified Leading Aircraftman, 1 February 1941; to Aircrew Reception Centre, Regents Park, 25 August 1941; (remustered as Fitter/Mechanic Engines under Pilot Training on same date); to No.13 Initial Training Wing, 27 September 1941; remustered as Pilot Under Training, Group 2, 13 November 1941; assigned to Special Duty List (United States), ATTS (whatever that means), 24 January 1942; Station Moncton, 12 February 1942; No.6 Basic Flying Training School, Ponca City, 10 March 1942; to No.31 Personnel Depot, Moncton at uncertain date but likely about date he was commissioned as Pilot Officer (25 September 1942); to No.7 Personnel Reception Centre, 11 December 1942; to No.6 (P) Advanced Flying Unit, 16 March 1943; promoted to Flying Officer on Probation, 25 March 1943 (confirmed in appointment at uncertain date); to No.12 OTU, 1 June 1943; No.1651 Conversion Unit, 2 September 1943; No.620 Squadron, 1 October 1943; No.1678 Conversion Flight, 16 November 1943; No.514 Squadron, 12 December 1943; reported missing, 29 December 1943; reported safe in United Kingdom, 8 June 1944 (NOTE: the Record of Service may have a typographical error regarding the date he went missing as he may also have been reported missing on 8 June 1944, reported safe at uncertain date); to No.1 Personnel Holding Unit, 14 August 1944; to Headquarters, Transport Command, 12 September 1944; to No.1332 Heavy Conversion Unit, 16 September 1944; promoted to Flight Lieutenant, 25 September 1944; transferred to RCAF, 14 May 1945 (C94043); repatriated 8 May 1946; released 1 June 1946. DHist file 181.005 D.270 confirms identity as Canadian airman in the RAF (January 1940). AFRO 1/45 dated 5 January 1945 (announcing the Bar to his DFC) described him as Canadian in the Royal Air Force. Air Ministry Bulletin 13190/AL.773 refers. Biography published by his son, titled DFC and Bar.

This officer was pilot of an aircraft which attacked Berlin on a recent occasion. During the operation the aircraft was hit by anti-aircraft fire and sustained damage. Some petrol was lost but in spite of this Flying Officer Greenburgh went on to make a successful attack. Before reaching England on the return flight the petrol supply became exhausted. Flying Officer Greenburgh brought his aircraft safely down on to the sea, however, and he and his crew got safely aboard the dinghy, from which they were rescued the following morning. Whilst they were adrift, Flying Officer Greenburgh did everything possible to cheer his crew, all of whom suffered severely through being buffeted by the heavy seas. Since then this officer has made two more attacks on the German capital, pressing home his attacks with his usual thoroughness.

GREENBURGH, F/O Louis (49803) - Bar to Distinguished Flying Cross - No.514 Squadron - awarded as per London Gazette dated 31 October 1944.

This officer has displayed the highest standard of skill, bravery and fortitude in air operations.

Good luck with your search!

 

All Through Training Scheme (ATTS)
was a scheme in Britain run by a combination of the RAF, USAAF and civilian schools to combine pilot training from EFTS (or whatever it was called in the UK) through SFTS at one base.

The pilots that went through this system, some 7000 plus, really liked it.

Its proper name was British Flying Training Schools (BFTS) but it was more commonly called ATTS and kits were stamped with ATTS.

I have to admit, his posting to it seems out of sequence. Its possible his role was in some sort of training based on his past experience.
It's not likely he would have been posted to mechanic duties as the ATTS used single engine aircraft only and his background looks over the top for this sort of duty.

 

Hi Alieneyes,

Thanks for the information. I was told about the national archives by the RAF museum. I also rang them up and they said to come over and look at the records. I guess I will need a full day there to make the most of it. It is interesting they had the name and address of the farmer that helped them. It would be amazing if they had details on the boy called Claude who helped my Dad.

I plotted out the course that LL727 took on the 8th June from RAF Waterbeach to Massy Palaiseau and the account of what happened after they got shot at makes sense where it was thought to have crashed. I was just wondering if there is any evidence there today that LL727 crashed there.

Mark

 

Hi Mark,

I'm assuming you've already obtained the loss card for LL727 from the RAF Museum?

I only ask because these loss cards have the planned routes (lats and longs) of the last operation before the aircraft was destroyed. They're great because you can then plot out the turning points on Google Earth.

They are given out free of charge by the Museum:

Contact the Department of Research & Information Services

As far as Kew goes, you can actually order the documents in advance (up to three boxes) so there is no waiting period when you get there.

There are also private researchers who will go in there for you and photograph the documents you want and email them to you as jpgs.

I can tell you that on one evasion questionnaire I received it mentioned the airman being discovered in a vegetable patch by a four year old girl.

I'm happy to say that the four year old girl is now happily retired 70 year old woman and more than remembered the incident in question and has not only answered my every question, but put me in contact with those older than her who recalled far more detail.

So, you just never know. Claude just might waiting to hear from you.

Please let the forum know what you come up with. It's a great story.

 

Mark,

Great story - I hope I may be of some help.

I have recently purchased a great reference book entitled "La GUERRE 39-45 DANS LE CIEL DE L'OISE" by Marcel Mavre, ISBN 2-915907-30-7. I can't say enough about this work, it contains a thorough account of every aircraft, Allied and German, that were lost over the skies of the Oise region of France. The author is a local aircraft historian and has compiled numerous description of the bomber missions, personal witness accounts of the crashes/raids and numerous photos. I have used this book in my own recent research. See forum thread:

http://www.ww2f.com/military-servic...19-info-charles-oconnor-rcaf-50-squadron.html

Your father's aircraft is included in the account - I've scanned and attached the relevant reference page for you as well as a detailed personal account of the crash by a young 12 yr old girl named Micheline Levieille-Lefebvre. Her now husband, Pierre Lefebvre, is also listed as a witness/reference. I can read and understand some French, but I suggest you find a good English translator. Here is what I can determine:

The reference page (Rippingale_1) says the crash site is known a "Le Berbie", 500m south of the town of Sainte-Eusoye and near the adjacent hamlet of Sauveleux. Details are registered with the Gendarmerie (national police) archives GSND60E/440P272.

View attachment 8921

The personal account page (Rippingale_2) further describes the crash site a few tens of meters from the Levieille house in Sauveleux. It appears that the family may have housed one of your father's crew (perhaps Greenburgh, Sutton or Fox) and the young Micheline recounts making an omelet for the British airman!

View attachment 8922

A quick Internet search has a Pierre Lefebvre listed with the following address and phone number:

Lefebvre, Pierre
33 Grand Rue
60480 Sainte-Eusoye, France

03 44 80 70 91

I hope the contact details are current and it helps you locate the actual crash site. I'm making plans for a similar pilgrimage to my great uncle's Lancaster crash site, presuming I can locate it. Let the Forum know if you locate any evidence of the plane (bring a metal detector) and whether Micheline and Pierre are still alive!

Regards,

Brian

 

Great job Brian, I couldn't have done it bette rmyself and yes Marcel's book is a great asset for those who do research on the Oise. I was in touch with him several years ago and he has both been very nice and helpful, a man from the old school the way Ilike them .

 

Absolutely amazing. Thank you everyone for the invaluable information. Brian's attachements are detailed accounts on what happened. My Mother is French and translated it for me. She was with the resistance in a safe house that helped my Dad when he and Fox bailed out. I have now in my possesion all my Dad's papers, log book and photos of 514 squadron and 196 squadron he was in. I also have a copy of Ed Greenburgh's book that he wrote about Lou which mentions the operation and crash. I see a photo of Micheline and Pierre in his book. The plane crashed about 20 metres from their house, luckily no one was injured or killed. I will OCR the 2 scans and translate them for anyone else who is interested.

I have looked for Lefebvre's address on Google Maps and Google earth but it cant match up the 60480. I wonder if this is the address where LL727 went down or he has moved. I dont really want to ring up out of the blue and say, do you remember 65 years ago....... I think I will get my Mother to write a letter to him. I am sure he will be glad to tell us his memories.
Hopefully I will get to meet Pierre and Micheline (hoping they are still alive) next year if I can get an exact location of the crash site, or course with metal detector in hand!!

 

Mark,

Exciting stuff! The address and phone number are presumably the Lefebvre's current (or at least most recent) address as searched through the Internet and not the "Levieille" homestead in Sauveleux near the crash site.

Here's a Google map link for Sauveleux. I imagine that the "Levielle" house is one of the visible structures and the crash site is visible somewhere on this satellite map too.

Sauveleux Map

Please do send out any relevant scanned photos or translated stories.

I understand your hesitancy in calling these good people out of the blue. I'm struggling with how best to contact a possible witness to my great uncle's fatal crash. I have an old friend (childhood pen pal) who lives north of Paris who I will probably enlist to make a first contact.

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]Brian

 

I can understand why you feel hesitant to contact people out of the blue and if dealing with a foreign language, then you should consider using a "native" speaker.
Might I suggest that Mark 727 ask his mother to make contact on behalf of Brian? That way you both have a connection, a "native" speaker makes the initial contact (and with a personal reason in a similar case may be easier to establish a rapport).
I can't see any good reason to delay, 65 years have past, how many more? Witnesses aren't going to be around for many more years whilst you debate how to make first contact.
Mark 727 Mum is hardly going to be totally insensitive, in fact she probably will be more understanding, knowing how crew relatives feel.
Do please, try, and soon. Once you have helped Brian, it may help with making the first contact in your own case.
As to the crash site, I can only say that at Arnhem, the crash sites there still show up as burnt patches. There is one next to the lane leading to the D151, but there are also a couple of what appear to be greenish disturbed patches elsewhere, so I can't help there.
Perhaps there is another French speaking Pal on here who might volunteer, or suggest an alternative contact, such as the Mairie or nearest Gendarmerie to establish their credentials as a genuine caller (and perhaps verify the contact details of a younger relative who could "break the ice".
Do you think that these people would NOT want to talk to you?
Please try, they may not want to talk, in which case you have at least tried.
They, too, may have been waiting 65 years for someone to come back and tell them they survived and that their help was appreciated.

 

Tomorrow I will compiling a letter to Pierre Lefebvre which my Mother will translate and send to him. I think this is the best approach insted of the telephone. All this is very emotional for her as her Brother was shot by the Germans in a Paris Metro, he was in the French resistance, but she wants to do it. My Dad passed away over 10 years ago but she says he would be proud of me taking such an interest in what he did in the war. I just wish I had done all this much sooner. Anyway I did a bit more searching for Pierre Lefebvre and found that he writes for a local newspaper in Sauveleux (dated 2008) and that they are raising money for a club building renovation to be finished by 2009. So it looks to me that Pierre is alive, so fingers crossed. I will send a printout of the satellite view of sauveleux and ask him to put an X where LL727 crashed as there are lots of unusual markings on the ground which could indicate the crash site so a positive ID would be good.

 

Mark 727

I applaud your efforts to contact Pierre and your mother's courage to assist you!

Icare9,

Thanks for the encouragement. I agree that time is of the essence and that a local native speaker/writer is best for these types of contacts. In my case, I'm fortunate to have my childhood French pen pal and his family available to me. They have previously expressed interest in my relative and his RCAF service. In fact, they've been visiting (mistakenly) another Canadian O'Connor war grave site somewhere else in Normandy every November 11th since they've heard a bit about my great uncle's story. Now that I have more accurate information, I'm sure they will be more than happy to be my surrogate and dig deeper for me. I mailed letters to both my pen pal and his wartime age parents within a few hours of reading your post, asking them for their assistance - thank you!

Brian

 

Brian and Mark: No thanks are due, I'm pushing!!
I know what I would want to do if I were in your positions, although obviously I know no more than what is posted here and that there may be many good reasons to hesitate. I still feel that after 65 years, there isn't much more time left!! And I would like you to have first hand knowledge of what happened from them, not descendants!!
In the meantime, are there local newspaper archives that may have recollections about the crashes, Resistance helpers etc?? That may help flesh out the story you (and we) would want to hear.
Bon chance!!

 

I have some exciting news. After a long time getting around to this due to other personal things going on, I emailed one of the Aircraft Recovery Team that I saw on tv called "Last of the Dambusters". Though he couldn't help me, my email got passed to someone else, then forwarded to someone else, then to someone in France, and then to a guy called Dominique Lecomte. He replied saying the has spoken to Mr and Mrs Lefevre and they remember the night of the crash and where the plane ended up. Totally amazing. I am planning to go out there sometime between July and October and with the help of Dominique hope to fid some wreckage. My Mother will accompany me and we hope to visit Mr and Mrs Lefevre as well as go back to the Le Tour Prends Garde where she hid my Dad after he got shot down. The last pieces of the jigsaw are finally coming together. I will update when I have more info.

Mark

 

Hi Mark727. WE have just returned from a week in La Tour Prends Garde and were very interested in the plaque on the wall outside. Now at home and having done some research, we would like to ask you some questions. How did your father escape from France? though he may well have stayed there till the war ended, being hidden by the lady who became your mother? Do you know the circumstances that lead to the capture and unfortunate death of your uncle Serge?
I too am searching for more information about my uncle . He was posted to 576 Sqdn in June 1944 but was shot down in September. He and his crew are buried in Calais.
Hope you don't mind the questions? Regards, Steamer.

 

Hi Steamer , was your father flying 576 Squadron Lancaster I, PD235 UL-M2, shot down by Flak while flying over CALAIS (on Operation Calais from September 24th?

 

Hi, We must have missed each other, we took our Mother back to La Tour Prends Garde two weeks ago.
My Father was taken back to England after D-Day. My Mother helped my Uncle by bringing food to the safe house, my Uncle was in the resistance.
It was not known what or why Serge was down in Pasteur Metro that day, but he was running from the Germans and was shot in the back. He died in the Metro, not La Tour Prends Garde.

We also visited the two witnesses who saw my Father's Lancaster crash. We visited the field where it crashed and recovered lots of plane bits including a serial number plate which we are trying to get identified amongst other parts.
All the crew bailed out but unfortunately F/S Gordon Stromberg suffered injury from the attacking plane and got caught up in telegraph wires where German soldiers found him, cut him down and took him to hospital where he died 2 days later from his injuries.
Not all Germans were bad as portrayed in war films. We also visited his grave in Amiens where he is buried.

Did you find out where your Uncle's plane crash?

Regards Mark

 

Not sure my reply went first time.Evenin' Skipper. Yes, my uncle was piloting PD235 on the night of Sept 24th 1944. I have no idea of the crash site so if you have any knowlege I would be pleased to hear from you. Thanks, Steamer

 

Dear Mark,

My father W/O Sutton was on board LL727 as a second dickie. As I'm sure you know a second dickie was a newly trained pilot who would go on his first mission standing behind the aircrafts pilot during the mission to find out what to expect in a raid over a German target. My father who is fit and well at almost 90, and I talk about his RAF experiences almost weekly and he has described this particular night to me (anniversary last night) in great detail. He tells me they were flying at around 7000ft and were shot down by a Focker Wolf 190 fighter that set fire to the starboard wing tanks. Lou Greenburgh gave the call to bail out and my father said he wasted no time in obeying the order, as he parachuted down he saw the aircraft crash near a house which was in the area called Massy Palaiseau. He stuffed his parachute and flying helmet as well as him self under a hedge at the side of the field in which he landed. In the morning he made contact with a French farmer and was taken in by a family called Lefebvre and during the next 10 or 12 weeks became a member of that family and was called 'Jean' Lefebvre (he spoke fluent French which was of course a huge help). When he was making his way back to England through the help of the resistance he met Ron Fox (the rear gunner) in a safe house in France one night but only briefly. When he finally made it back to England and although as an undetected evader need not have flown another mission having been shot down. He chose to return to 514 where he flew a further 35 missions and received the DFC.

In the early 1970's one morning my farther received a brown paper parcel in the post, to his astonishment inside was his flying helmet that he had stuffed in the hedge on the night of the 6/7th of June 1944. A farmer had found it and by asking all the old locals, discovered who it must have belonged to and somehow discovered my fathers address and sent it to him. As a result my mother and father went back and saw some of the people that helped him from the local village the following year.

About 8 years ago we discovered that 514 still had an annual reunion at Water Beach every June and my father will be going next week (the 11th). The first time we attended one of the reunions we discovered that Lou Greenburgh was alive and well and still living in Canada. My father wrote to him and he received a reply as well as a book that his son had written about his incredible escapades during his time in the RAF. I hope this information is of interest to you but please phone me if you would like to discuss that eventful night any further, my number is 07709912416

Regards
Richard Sutton