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Dunkirk

Discussion in 'Western Europe' started by EagleSquadron12, Feb 8, 2017.

  1. EagleSquadron12

    EagleSquadron12 New Member

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    So with the news of the new movie Dunkirk, I figured I'd start a thread about one of the most important operations of the war. Not just because of the military importance but the purpose of humanity itself.

    Had the British command decided not to save those boys from death or capture it would have led to, a severe blow to morale, and possibly an uproar from the British citizens.

    I'm not going into to much of thought here mainly because I'm interested in what all of you think.
     
  2. harolds

    harolds Member

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    I'm sure that this has been worked over on this forum before. However, the key question is: were Hitler and von Rundstedt correct in issuing the "stop order" or could have Guderian's forces have taken Dunkirk?
     
  3. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Did they really have a choice?
     
  4. Terry D

    Terry D Well-Known Member

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    People seem to assume that the stop order was what determined the outcome. I am not so sure.
     
  5. EagleSquadron12

    EagleSquadron12 New Member

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    I feel the stop order wasn't much influence but at the same time you can't help but wonder if it changed a bitter ending into a more bittersweet ending
     
  6. Christian Ankerstjerne

    Christian Ankerstjerne Member

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    The German situation maps from 22 May and 23 May show an unknown, possibly motorized or cavalry, Allied force approaching the Somme river at Corbie west of Amiens. The 24 May map further speculates that this may be a British army-sized unit, showing advances against Picquigny, Amiens, Villers-Bretonneux, Péronne, and Ham.

    If the Allies had been capable of launching an attack across the Somme river and linking up with the British pocket, at the time less than 50 kilometers away, it would have cut off effectively the entire German mechanized force, including all ten tank divisions and all four motorized infantry division. Since the divisions in such a pocket were all motorized, the lack of supplies would quickly have become critical.
     
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  7. harolds

    harolds Member

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    The Germans had air supremacy and could/did? have mounted aerial recon to find out what was out there. Plus, the Germans could have pushed out recon units on the ground. Personally, I haven't ever read anything that shows this supposed army really had an effect on the decision compared to the tactical situation, ground conditions, and the wear and tear on the panzers that would have affected future ops.
     
  8. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    Did they really have air supremacy at that point? Certainly they could achieve air superiority at will but that's not quite the same thing.
     
  9. Christian Ankerstjerne

    Christian Ankerstjerne Member

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    I don't know why the advancing units of the 7th French Army didn't begin being identified until 26 May. All I can tell from the maps is that they weren't. My guess would be that, with the Somme river as a defensive line until Fall Rot could be launched, the focus of reconnaissance operations was on the encircled Allied forces in the north.

    Considering the shock the Germans had at the British counter-attack at Arras on 21 May, which resulted in the Germans delaying their advance, it seems at least probable that the possibility of an attack from the south would have been part of the reason for the German order to halt.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2017
  10. BFBSM

    BFBSM Member

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    The advances by the British against the bridges crossing the Somme at Picquigny, Ailly & Dreuil les Amiens, were conducted by tanks from a single Squadron ("C" Sqn) of the Queen's Bays (2nd Dragoon Guards) supported by infantry from the 4th Border Regiment. They had no artillery. The troops from the two Regiments had never worked together, and it would seem apparent from my research, that the 4th Border Regiment had not been trained to fight with tanks, in fact the 4th Border Regiment was a Line of Communication unit and 'not intended for front line service' (The 1st Armoured Division, John Plant, New Generation Publishing, 2013. p.12/13). The 4th Border Regiment managed to get troops across the Somme at only one point, Ailly, but were forced to withdraw due to heavy artillery and mortar fire.

    Mark
     
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  11. Christian Ankerstjerne

    Christian Ankerstjerne Member

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    I know that the Allies didn't have any realistic chance of breaking the encirclement after 21 May. My point is that the Germans didn't know that, and may well have over-estimated the strength of the French 7th Army.
     
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  12. Brian Smith

    Brian Smith Active Member

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    Well certainly important for those who got back. I live next door to a Dunkirk veteran who, having become separated with a few mates from his unit just considers himself lucky to have found his way to the boats and get away. The bigger picture regarding advancing British troops and air supremacy were at that time as he looked for a way out not his greatest concern.
     
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  13. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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  14. Denis Caron

    Denis Caron New Member

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    That must be an incredible experience to speak with someone who was on the beaches. What else did you learn?
     
  15. Brian Smith

    Brian Smith Active Member

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    He and a few from his Unit, completely separated from the rest found their way to where boats were loading on moles and were ordered by some unknown officer to help load injured soldiers on stretchers on to the boats, this they did and having found themselves embarked and ready to sail decided to sit tight. He puts this action down to saving his life.
     
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  16. Highway70

    Highway70 Member

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    A story I read years ago. Some British soldiers in a truck got separated from their unit and lost. On a very dark night they spotted a convoy headed in the right direction so pulled in behind it. At dawn they found out thy were following a German convoy. They did make it to Dunkirk and were evacuated England.
     
  17. DrCray

    DrCray New Member

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    My Dad, Allan Reeve RIP, was a Dunkirk veteran and a good few years ago we self-published his memoirs, titled 'I was a D-Day Dodger'. I'll get to the relevant bit about Dunkirk, but first a brief intro. He entered the RE as a Sapper in the 225's aged 20. After France went for re-training in the Scottish Borders, then to N Africa, over to Italy, and finally up to Greece where he became a D-Day Dodger (if you don't know the story and haven't heard the song - it's a must! There's various versions, personally this one



    And so, to his tale, which is straight from his memoirs.

    Late in the afternoon, only a few boats of the 'little armada' remained, the large bulk of them having returned to England with thier salvaged human cargoes. The evacuation was over to all intents and purposes. What boats did attempt to come in still remained a long way offshore as the tide was well out. Jackie and I made fruitless attempts to get out to various boats, but as a non-swimmer the 200 yards or so proved an impossible task. So, wet and weary, we trudged of towards Dunkirk. An unearthly calm settled over the whole area.. On our way we came across a small group of soldiers playing cards; they had had enough and despite our pleas to join us, firmly insisted that they would be happy to be taken as PoWs. Otherwise the beaches were now completely deserted. Well almost! Very surpisingly we came upon an insignia clad Brigadier General striding briskly towards us, all on his own, no batman, no camoflage battledress. He was in full uniform, red braid all over the place, and no steel helmet. What a prize he would have been for the Germans! We approached, saluted and asked what our chances were of getting off the beach. His reply was very matter of fact "You're on your own soldier". He seemed beyond caring and appeared to be in rather a hurry. We turned to go and than as an afterthought he said that there was a largish Dutch cargo boat further down the beach. It had beached itself high and dry and was hoping to get off at high tide around midnight. We thanked him and set off.

    Upon later investigation this high-ranking officer proved to be no less than Lord 'Tiger' Gort, commander of the BEF at that point, although for not much longer. In reports of his dispatches it says that he "had received instructions from the British Government, which left him no option, that as soon as the BEF, by evacuation, fell below 3 divisions he was to hand over to a Corps Commander and return home. On May 31st he handed over to Major General Alexander, and sailed that night." Well he certainly left it to the last minute, and well below the level of 3 divisions. Although he did not make absolutely sure that these last two squaddies were evacuated safely, he did as much as he could - given that his escort was probably waiting for him, and his command was going to be over within hours. Upon his return he was made Aide-de-Camp General to King George VI, so one day telling 2 squaddies to go on a beach near Dunkirk, the next having tea with the KIng.

    So, what do folk reckon? Be interested to hear your thoughts and opinions as to how, and why, such brass was openly walking Dunkirk beach with what appears to be confidence and impunity. I have my own ideas but I'd prefer to get others first.

    Thanks
     
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  18. LRusso216

    LRusso216 Graybeard Staff Member

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    I'm not sure what those reasons are (I'm a Septic after all), but the story is compelling. I would love to read the whole thing.
     
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  19. roker

    roker New Member

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  20. roker

    roker New Member

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    Hi my father was one left behind .His unit 2nd batt Durham light Infantry .The first V.C.Won British Army ww2 was won by this unit.
    Lt Anuard By All accounts the battlion was hit by 2 panzer divs .No antitank guns just light infantry Brenguns and 303.s
    The British government led by Chamberlin lot to answer for .The Army was Last on the List rearmerment R,A.F. ,Royal navy top of list.
    Father was P.O.W.5 years. roker
     

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