The Great Patriotic War: 1939-1943

Again, vivisection, line by line, your way.

Emphasis on the first few days. You have to have enough balls to persist to the last round if you really want to win.

They had enough space and time. German army has just entered France and the resistance was over. Compare that to the Soviet determination and you will end up with very well founded scientific conclusion. You have to fight if you want to win.

Regardless, there was intent, before the war and after the war. France wanted what the Germans wished to have. All what British and French Empires wanted was to weaken German competition.

US wanted and has taken much more. The war has not ended with capitulation of Japan. The job has not been completed.

Eastern Europe had a great deal of independence and enough room to develop own countries. British and French colonies were deprived from such a luxury.

You can say the same for all 17 agencies.

 

@RichTO90
Please, leave that echo chamber and start using your own head.

 

The Soviets didn't do that in the first couple of months the French did until their position was unhinged.

No they didn't. When the armistice was declared the front was just days away from Paris and there was nothing left to stop the German advance. At that point in the campaign in the East the Soviets still had plenty of room to fall back on and were doing so.

France had essentially nothing left to fight with though. Another two weeks and the Germans would have held most of France. Of course the French also had a pretty good idea their very existence wasn't at stake. Not so with the Soviets.

????? What I do understand of that is wrong.

Thou art waxing incoherent.

Or not.

Really? I think the Canadians, Indians, South Africans, Australians, New Zeelanders, etc would take issue with that.

What "17 agencies"?

 

Please respond to the facts instead of trying to divert things with an ad hominem down your comic book-inspired rabbit hole.

"Few"? Sure, GELB lasted effectively nine or ten days. The withdrawal operations at Dunkirk and the consolidation of the French forces behind the Weygand line lasted sixteen days. The final operations of Fall ROT took another 17 days. In that time the Germans advanced some 400 kilometers into France...and had about 300 to go before reaching the Mediterranean Coast, Biscay Coast, and Spanish border. About the same time into BARBAROSSA, the Germans had advanced about the same distance...and needed to go another 900 kilometers before they reached the relocated Soviet industrial heartland and had thousands of kilometers to go before the Soviets ran out of space.

 

The French declared Paris an open city on 13 June and the Germans occupied it on 14 June, but the French did not seek an armistice until 16 June and it did not go into effect until 0035 hours 25 June. The last ouvrage of the Maginot Line did not surrender until 10 July...so much for "scientifically" looking at the French surrender.

I suspect those run by the Illuminati and Trilateral Commission, but that is an inference based upon the THQ (the highly scientific measurement known as the Tinfoil Hatness Quotient) of the rest of his posts.

 

Guys, you even don't know how many agencies operate behind the closed dors in your own country. What a shame.


These 17 Agencies Make Up The Most Sophisticated Spy Network In The World

 

Uh, Tinfoil Dude, I worked in the IC, but simply couldn't imagine what connection you thought you were making between Soviet intelligence in WW2 and the US 73 years later, but then most of your post is incoherent.

 

We were talking about internal security agencies and you bring up spy agencies. Then act surprised we don't know what you are talking about. then it's apparently just a link to a business magazine article. Are you really that dense?

 

ROFLMAO. I inderstand now.

 

I believe that you have made some good, or at least, interesting points if for no other reason that stirs debate, but I must take exception to this one.

Soviet military operations during the summer and early fall of 1941 were hardly distinguishable from those of France in the spring-summer of 1940. Individual bravery from common soldiers was over whelmed by massive incompetence demonstrated by political and military leadership and deeply flawed pre-battle planning and assumptions. The significant difference was the distance between the frontier and the targeted capitol. The USSR could blunt the German advance by sheer distance and time, something France, Poland, Denmark, Norway, Holland, Belgium, Yugoslavia and Greece could not. Nor did they have the advantage of massive amounts of free military aid from the UK and USA to directly fuel their efforts.

Great Britain also benefited from a accident of geography with the English Channel separating it from Continental Europe. Had it been a river like the Rhine or Meuse the Swastika would flown over Parliament by September 1940. The US was even more fortunate with two massive oceans between it and its opponents.

I do think France should have continued the fight from their overseas colonies, but to be fair their colonies lacked the industry and manpower that Britain's Dominions and Colonies did, and they had much less reason to have faith that America would be tempted into intervening. Also unlike Russia, France was offered a option short of total occupation and some misplaced reason to believe this war would be resolved as previously were with the exchange of provinces and indemnities. The Soviet Union operated under no such delusions as Hitler's intent was clear.

The question to ask is if the Soviet capitol had been Minsk,Riga, Kiev or even Smolensk and Stalin still insisted on remaining in his capitol would the Communist nation fought on or fractured as Hitler expected it to? The honest answer is that we just can't know. No doubt we all have our opinions and they are equally valid in the most part. The Soviet Union would eventually collapse under its own weight through economic pressure some 45 years later.

I do not discount Soviet courage or sacrifice, buts lets be fair, it was the only cards they had to play. Had they faced the challenges the Western Allies had to face they would never have come to grips with the enemy. They were even less capable to cross the Channel than Hitler was, let alone to cross oceans. The Western Allies played the best cards they had which involved buckets of sweat over blood and varied technology over sheer brute force.

The USSR suffered between 8-5 and 11-5 million military deaths during WWII against Germany's 4.5 to 5.3 million despite a threefold greater population and the fact Germany participated from day 1 to VE day and Germany faced two other military juggernauts at the same time whereas the Soviet Union did not. Russia paid a horrendous price for victory in Europe and they deserve full credit for that price, but that price was nearly as much their own fault as that of Germany

 

Beautifully said belasar...........

 

Indeed, you better look over your shoulder and make sure your tinfoil hat is firmly in place...I AM WATCHING YOU...

 

This is a prominent example of the use of post-war concepts to support false interpretations of significant historic facts. At that time the Germans have not made public their plans to exterminate "irredeemably decadent" Slavs, if such plan even ever existed. Hossbach Memorandum, like Comey Memos, is questionable document published too late to have any relation to the reality. So tell me, please, how an ordinary Soviet citizen may have known the "real" German intentions to exterminate them?

The truth is as usual, simple: Soviet citizens have shown intensity of their affection for their country by opposing the enemy so fiercely.

Their victory against Barbarossa made the Overlord possible.
Their victory against the Fall Blau made the Overlord even more probable.
Their victory against the Zitadelle made the Overlord inevitable.
Their victory in Bagration supported success of the Overlord.

So why deprive them from well deserved credits? The real owner of the "truth" at the west is the most sophisticated propaganda machine of all times that serves the sole purpose of intimidating own population with invented adversaries. The propaganda machine has became so powerfull that it endangers west itself. Just look arround you.

 

While the Germans may not have announced plans to "exterminate" the Slavs they had made it clear that they were going to take over much if not all the area they had conquered and it took little reading between the lines to realize Slavs would be very much second class citizens in their own lands. The atrocities started pretty early as well and news of them or even propaganda concerning them or even false events of this type would was definitely on the Soviet menu.

Deriding others for such things as "false interpretations" is a pretty clear sign that you don't have an open mind on the subject and indeed are likely basing many of your post on your own "false" or at least questionable interpretations. The evidence to date backs that up. Indeed I find myself wondering if you are having some sort of emotional issues or your meds have changed.

 

How much allied brought railroad, fuel, planes, boots, soft skin vehicles, militaRy food in cans the Ussr had to win these victories you mention for Overlord. Remove the help and answer again.

 

Don't worry dear LWD. Stupidity isn't illness, no need to cure it.

 

Simpler than that. Remove the Lend-Lease supply of toluol and chemicals such as hexamine and nitric acid, along with the finished TNT and smokeless propellant and you eliminate upwards of 80% of the TNT and at least 24% of the smokeless propellants supplied to the Soviet military during the war.

 

@lwd
Did you know that in 1941, the value of goods delivered to the USSR under the Lend-Lease was worth about $100 million, which represents less than 1% of the total supply. Valuable but what impact that had, overall. And, by the way, substantial deliveries have begun after the turning point, 1944 and 1945. I'm not downplaying the impact of L&L but, overall, it represented just 4%. Valuable but far from decisive.
I'll take a pill now, for something else.

 

That's an open question actually. You could probably eliminate 10-20 % of the supply if you chose properly and it would have little impact. Choose the right 1% though and it could be decisive. Kind of odd trying to use value in dollars to weigh things too. If you use official exchange rates between the dollar and the ruble you get a rather flawed view of the value of things. Many of things on the LL list from what I understand were items that the Soviets really needed as well. Again one of the reasons that Germany lost was the allies even the Soviets and the West acted like allies. No one wanted to waste transport on useless or even minimally useful items. My understanding was also that by 45 LL was starting to wind down a bit.

 

I agree on that. Do you know that fable about grandpa and big beet? Sometimes it is easier to cope with problems when you know that there are friends who care about you.