The Wall

For the first time I am truly ashamed of my country.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&u=/nm/20061026/pl_nm/bush_border_dc_12

Later

 

Well then, we are on opposite sides of this issue. Maybe the Organ Pipe National Monument outside Lukeville (Gringo Pass as many locals generally call it), the most enviromentally endangered US public park, will finally be able to recover from the tens of thousands of criminals trampling it in to the desert while dumping tons of garbage in it.
Oh, there is also the Cabreza Wildlife Refuge that is also endangered along with portions of the Coronado National Forest. Then there is the Goldwater Air Force Gunnery range between Yuma and Gila Bend. The Air Force wastes hundreds of thousands of dollars a year rounding up criminal entrants that are roaming across the range to keep them from being killed duing live fire exercises. These same criminal entrants also delay and prolong military exercises and training as it takes time to round them up.
I can remember being able to actually camp there for the weekend, overnight. Today, the park is closed after dark due to the very real danger that an American citizen camping there overnight is likely to be robbed and or killed. This is real.
I have a good number of friends and aquantences in Cochise County (Southeast AZ) that to a person are fed up with the high vehicle theft rates (highest in the nation), crime, drugs, and unwashed masses trampling their land into barren wasteland.
There is no up side to criminal entrants. Putting up a fence to reduce their numbers is a good start.

 

No "Plan" will work without a wall/fence/line, some aspect of control. ANY/ALL words before a wall (about a plan), is hot (98.6 degree) air.
The number is constantly changing, second to second. What plan works with a varible of 13 million?
Immigrants? perhaps, if they do it legally, obey the law, pay their taxes, learn the language... (this is America, not the "Tower of Babel")(special interests be Damned, when it comes to that)...Welcome.
If not, criminal (no other word applies...ever).
Refugees? indeed
Invaders?..... What's your deffinition?
No other place on this planet allows "Free" movement of non-citizens in and out of its' borders, much less allows work and lodging to the un-registered/untaxed, and many times un-insured drivers as well.
Squatting on public lands to the point of landfills?
Much less, State provided (a Federal law that individual States have to) welfare/healthcare/right to vote/education (in appropriate language). You've got to be kidding!
I'm ashamed it's gone this far BAD.
Who's minding the Store?
Ballot box packing Liberals, who are getting their pockets "Picked" of our money/childrens future, and too afraid to offend the Robber.
Give us all a break.
It's tiring to see the Barn Door swing all the way one way or the other. No middle ground. Make no mistake, it's all the way open now, and the cows are gone.
X Texas and California resident.
Guess why I left?

 

I have put my thoughts on anouther thread but I can put them here on this one too.

They kept Mexicans out in the 50's,thru 70's without the use of a fence. I believe rich people want the people for cheap labor and do jobs the natives refuse to do. On the other hand they will tell the voters they are working on the problem with silly measures like fences to stay in power. If no one hires the Mexicans then they will not come over in such numbers.

It's like the "war on drugs", there is money to be made and it will not be stopped until people stop buying and using drugs and there is no more market.

Mexico is not going to stop the movement until someone hits them in the pocket book by discontinuing the North American Free Trade Agreement.

 

This wall is a disgrace.

Later

 

Yes it is. The US government should have built three or four times more and a much stronger one IMHO. I can also state that if you lived in Arizona as I do you too would be all for a fence!

 

Anything without a "Big" chain on it, or a wall around it...is free!

If you lived in the middle of this philosophy, and lost you lawn furniture, bicycles, outdoor grill, lawn mower, had your garden picked clean, and any/all un-double locked buildings looted, swamp coolers/window air conditioners, even outdoor HVAC units and shrubberies (removed without your permission).
Even gas from your vehicles, stickers (renewal tags) from your license plates (since moved to inside of windshields in these states), you would sing a different tune, and be all about fences.
Stop listening to Hillar(it)y.
There are no more Doc-in-a-box out patient clinics down there any longer, only hospitals. 50-100 miles away for the locals. They've been SWAMPED out of existance.
It would take months, and I would be "censored" if I told you everything me/friends/family...heard/saw/know/had happen to us, heard from others, read in the paper, Police reports, from schools, Malls, jobsites, residences.
Till all this (and more) is going on in and around your home (mostly at night) 24/7, what is it you know?
A good blueprint to work from would be...
The Great Wall of China
Another little "Goody"
I'm not sure who said it but, "Fences make Good neighbors."
Ever live in a place Small/no fences, where your neighbor had a dog and he stakes him out at the edge of his property line on a big chain.
Where does that dog deposit his "Tootsie Rolls"?

 

Why is that?

 

I suppose this means that Israel is OK to proceed with Its wall.

Sadly, a result of the greed of the USA, in those that supply the employment for "iilegal" Mexicans. Taking work away from the American unemployed. For well over 170 years the USA has not been a good neighbour to Mexico. here is the result.

"And the radio said they were "Just Deportees...."

 

American largesse and greed has caused the Republinazis to stoop to this level. You're all blaming the the wrong culprits. Why do we give these people a reason to do what they do?Examine our policies concerning Mexico over the last 100 years and then you'll see where the blame should lie.

Later

ps., I can't stand Hillary Clinton.

 

Please everyone, don't miss-understand, and do not make this into Race, (the catch-all/Cop-out).
I say wall yes, I did not say a wall with no gates!
My point is CONTROL. Of which now there is none.
No identification, registration or restriction on anyone.
People are being lured here by promisses (sometimes even transportation) of wages in excess of 7 times what they make now, (which is ironic) about the difference in the cost of living here.
Many (and I've spoken with many) take that money back to Mexico to live like a King.
Hence enriching the
1. Government of Mexico,
2. the U.S. employers who operate "above" the law (with Federal Government "blind eye-deaf-ear" policies/lack of enforcement).
Enpoverishing the
1. States (who have to absorb the cost of Federal/Big Business wishes.
2. The LEGAL small business owners, small towns, middle America.
The Royalty (the new Feudalism exists everywhere), and the illegal flourish, while the honest struggle.
How is this right?
Going into the rest
It's been my expierence that 1 out of 10 people is a thief, except politics where 40-60% is a safe bet.
Out of 13 million, how many thieves is that?
15 from Pakistan were caught with fake Argentinian IDs.
La Migra, admits that for everyone caught, 3 get through.
Prostitution rings in Dallas/Fort Worth tavern using Illegal 11-15 year old girls from Costa Rica/Hondouras. Read the Dallas Morning News.

80% of all Crystal Meth, Cocaine, and virtually All Grass comes through this border.
Something needs to be done, because nothing is being done now.
Glad to hear you don't enjoy Hillary's ACT!

 

skunk works;
I see your point, and mostly agree however I am far away from understanding what you are going through in the U.S.

But I think "The Wall" is not the answer, it never was...

 

I simply can't believe what I'm reading. I have read so many adjectives and no nown at all, specially the most important of them all: human beings. Which is the subject here.

It seems that no one cares about that. No one cares about that the number of dead has doubled since 1995. 3.000 people have died trying to get across the border during that time, about the time the federal government began a series of enforcement initiatives to stop migration around ports of entry. But, as always, it is the shepards who do care about the dignity of people:

'The proposed construction of a border wall... may give the illusion that the border is secure, [but] in reality it will not prevent migrants from attempting to enter the United States. What it will do is lead them toward more dangerous routes and into the hands of unscrupulous smugglers, resulting in even more exploitation and deaths in the desert' (+ Monsignor Thomas Wensky, Bishop of Orlando, Florida).

'To those who are exploited by smugglers and the women and children who are dying in the desert at the U.S.-Mexican border, the immigration issue is not political, but rather a humanitarian and moral question... The current immigration system is morally unacceptable because it accepts the labor and taxes of millions of workers without offering them the protection of the law... At the same time, we scapegoat these newcomers for our social ills and use them as rhetorical targets for political purposes... While the immigration debate to date has focused on the economic, legal, and social/cultural aspects of the issue, it is ultimately a humanitarian, and moral, issue. The result of no real immigration reform will be the expansion of more illegal migration'.(+ Roger Cardinal Mahoney, Archbishop of Los Ángeles).The complete story.

Not only this measure attacks the symptoms and not the may complex roots of the problem. It also serves to destroy the overwhelmingly diminished moral weight of the United States around the world, follishly continuing the same awkwarda and unilateral policies of brute force and no communication with the Latin American countries.

The Wall is indeed more than shameful.

 

Let me add a few "lasts" here:

Arizona ranks last in education, mainly because of criminal entrants. A ballot proposal (proposition 301) would force criminal entrants who attend schools, universities etc., to pay out of state tuition among other things. There is actually opposition to this!

Arizona has one of the highest crime rates due to criminal entrants.

The most dangerous street gang in America is MS 13 composed largely of criminal entrants.

Almost 20% of the US prison population is criminal entrants who have committed serious felonies. Each one sucks up about $25,000 per year to house.
California's criminal entrant prison population is large enough that if it were eliminated every person in that state could go to college for free on the money saved.

Arizona, with Tucson leading the way, has the highest auto theft rate in the nation with the vast majority of the vehicles stolen going to Mexico where many are used by coyotes, drug runners, and others for cross border movement.

Arizona has the longest emergancy room waiting times in the nation due almost entirely to criminal entrants.

There was a resturant chain here in Arizona called Filiberto's several years back. Each store was open 24/7 and averaged just 3 employees on the books. The Feds busted the entire chain arresting over 500 criminal entrants. The owners were arrested. They were charged with not paying payroll taxes, paying less than minimum wage, not paying FICA (social security) taxes, knowingly hiring criminal entrants, and running drop houses in Phoenix.
The fines alone were over $2 million and the principle owners went to prison. Sometimes the system does work but not very often.
A friend living outside Sierra Vista near Hereford related the story of stopping a criminal entrant on his land (this guy is a retired US Army Colonel), one of dozens a month he stops. This particular individual didn't speak spanish or english. Eventually, my friend determined that the guy was from Italy and offered to call him a "Green and White taxi." The Italian was very grateful until the border patrol arrived and arrested him. It ain't just Mexicans coming over.

The Tonoho O'tham tribe located on the border with Mexico performs about 300 autopsys per year on dead criminal entrants. Law enforcement and border secruity issues have drained the tribal treasury to a point where they cannot do even basic government functions for themselves.

3000 dead? Try about 1000 per year currently. Some are just astounding. Many are murder.

Good fences make good neighbors. Mexico needs to fix their problems and stop sluffing their excess population and economic problems off on the US. Once a fence is up and the entry rate is under control maybe we the people can force the government to act on employers. Amnesty? Forget it. Deport the lot of 'em!

 

AGREED ! sorry but I guess I am getting quite tired of America being given an Ass-wipe name, Mexico needs to take full responsiblity for what is happening instead of looking the other way and having their daily Tequila parties.

Can you imagine if the border farmers/ranchers in the southern states are allowed free reign in protecting their homes with the full useage of arms ? the blood will flow.

 

25% of the prison inmates 'are' illegal immigrants form south of the border. Many of the jobs they do would be done by high school kids if they were available, ( fast food etc ). & auto theft has risen dramatically in Utah recently as well.

The Chinese built a wall by hand bigger than one that would go across the border. How much have we spent on Iraq? Enough to build a wall perhaps, probably 3 of em. I don't agree that it wouldn't work,it would prevent the thousands of deaths, not create em. They would have to go by sea, most of em would'nt even try it as they would know the chances are way less.

& I speak some Spanish, had a Mexican girlfriend once, & love Santana, but enough's enough.


P.S. Whenever the American anthem is played at a boxing event, they all boo in unison. I can't imagine doing something like that, visiting a foreign country & booing their anthem?! Rotty behaviour that is. & if they were interested in becoming American, great, but many of them don't bother to learn English. If I head over to japan or Italy, are they gonna speak English for me? Likely not.

 

25% are illegals??

Or just Hispanic??

What % of the US population is Hispanic?

And as the US forced the Brits to hand back most of their Empire, when can Mexico recover its Empire?

 

Look. Most of you know me well and know also that I'm very far from being and anti-Yank or a 'liberal' (in the silly sense that word is used in the US). But the things said here are simply awful and I can't but condemn them (such as 'excess population', as if overpopulation was a problem similar to a plague).

Are you bloody serious? Do you think this country just fools around all day long and party with Tequila? That's just an idiotic stereotypical image from a bad Fox cartoon... Do you know the country? Have you visited the most miserable communities, neglected by the economy, by the government and by the world? Have you told a wetback's wife, looking her into the eyes, who lives alone with 4 children and who hasn't seen her husband or talked to him in years (but who knows he's alive because she gets his checks), that his husband is a criminal? Come on!

Yes, I know Mexico is a mess. Its southern border is awful, and it gives the country no moral ground to ask the US for anything. But I'm not discussing politics here. I am talking about human beings, which no one seems to even consider. No one wants to treat people as people. That's my complaint.

Good fences make good neighbours? That's just plain stupid. Communication, looking the other into his eyes, knowing what he thinks, what he feels, what he needs, makes good neighbours. Building a wall, isolating yourself, telling the other you don't want anything to do with you, will make the problem even worse.

Good that you bring the Chinese Wall into the argument. It did NOT stop the Mongols. And this shameful wall will not stop illegal immigration and the so-called culture clash (or such a moron as Mr. Samuel Huntington says...), will not stop violence in the border, narcotraffic or the dead of people whose only crime is having no fucking options to have a life worth of a human being.

Watch the border on November 2nd, when Mexican and American bishops will celebrate a Eucharyst from both sides of the wall, showing that no stupid wall can split people who render the other as that: human persons.

 

Here's my exact view:

From www.zenit.org

 

But an American version of that wall would. The Chinese didn't have the equipment, lights, roads, vehicles etc. Ours would work. & the hilly terrain is different from the largely flat terrain between Mexico & US. Very different scenario.

"to seek alternative and more dangerous ways to enter the country, contributing to an increase in deaths, including women and children. … "

Like what?? catapult?