Combat!

Kruska, I completely agree with DGMitchell about the GREAT TV series COMBAT. You would never be able to sway me in my opinions of that GREAT TV show. Vic Morrow was one hell of a great actor and the rold of Sgt. Saunders was perfect for him. The last time I posted in this thread, I only had the first 1 1/2 seasons of this GREAT show but, I now have the complete series on DvD. Of all the episodes I have seen so far-not a one of them was bad enough to not want to watch it.

Sorry, never heard of Hornets Nest.

 

During the 60's Combat was THE longest runnig TV war drama of it's time 5 seasons. Every actor in hollywood wanted to be in that show as you can see it's long list of great actors who guest starred in it as proof. Why did creators of SPR use so much of the show's concept becuase of it's high quality acting, characters and stories.

Philip

 

No problem mate

Hello dgmitchell and C. Evans,

Well I guess I got to explain a bit.

First off all the Germans are portrait generally as dumb buds – So non Germans wouldn’t have a problem with that.
Secondly those (IIRC 7 Gi’s) slaughter thousands of Germans, destroy even a Rail Gun and its crew, and a complete Division. Germans who position themselves with a machine gun in the middle of the road behind sandbags, don’t hit shit at a distance of 20m, but one of the invincible 7 manages to shot down all three Germans with his Tommy gun whilst making a forward role and so on and on.

I grew up in Singapore and had to face the consequences of this show every Monday, since almost everyone watched it on Sundays. So Mondays usually started of with, hey Andy those Germans really got whacked again – and I promise you there wasn’t a single Monday that wouldn’t end up in fight – and that for years.

Luckily I won the majority of these slugging matches so that I could “convince” the majority about the “true” Wehrmacht abilities.

My friends ( a bunch off Allies and locals girls and boys) (one of the girls was my friends (Andy Nixon) sister – she is the Vietnam girl that assists in Rambo II) and me actually used to bet on this movie since it was so predictable; e.g. The 7 +2 newbies = 1 dead and 1 wounded, or 7+1 newbie = 1 wounded amongst the 7 and so on.

BTW, Sgt. Saunders got killed during a Vietnam movie take, does anyone remember the movie? I heard he was to play the Chuck Norris part in one of the Vietnam “Combat” fantasy movies. You know 7 guys wipe out a Vietminh brigade and rescue half a dozen POW’s after 10 years.

Oh and a Hornets nest is about an US pilot ? who gets shot down over Yugoslavia and raises a partisan gang with kids aged between 8-14 and they Schmeisser down an entire SS company whilst driving on a truck through their camp.

Regards
Kruska

 

Hi Krusha, this is going to take awhile for me to explain my position about the GREAT TV show: COMBAT ;-))

Aside from my Sister, your the first person I have ever heard that hates the COMBAT series. This aside, i'll try my best to 'splain, my position on it and give you some insights about the series that might ACTUALLY get you to change your opinion of the show over-all.

1) I have to disagree with you about the Germans always portrayed as idiots. For instance, there are many episodes that deal with the Germans close-up and you see that they arent idiots. A favorite episode of mine which has Albert Salmi as a guest star and the episode is called: Cat and Mouse. This deals with he and Sgt Saunders who have to scout ahead and they find an old Water-mill and it's supposed to be used by the G.I's as an observation post. Well, the first four G.I's sent there, managed to get wiped-out due to boobytraps and such. Next they send Saunders, and one or more of his men get killed and the rest wounded, and lastly, they have to send Sgt. Jenkens (Salmi) to try to reach said water mill.

After Sagts Saunders and Jenkens finally make it to the mill and with Jenkens men alive, an unexpected German Artillery unit moves into the area-some of Jenkens men are killed trying to evade, and the Germans set up their O.P & HQ, in that mill-not knowing the two Ami Sgts are hiding in that mill.

Eventually Jenkens surrenders so that Saunders can make his escape and report their findings to HQ. Jenkens dies giving his life so that Saunders has some noise to cover his escape. Saunders makes his way back to US lines and makes his report only to be told that the info he gave-HQ already knew about. Saunders was so disgusted by that and makes a comment that so many lives were given-only for his info to be "old news."

I can quote many other episodes that deal with "smart" Germans and theis fighting capabilities-but don't have the time to do so. If you go over to Militaria Collectors Network you will see a section I am Moderator of-near the bottom of the forums, in which I gave rather lengthy reviews that I, wrote up and in which tells you what the episode was about with detail.

2) Talking about the Germans who were unable to hit their targets-try watching episodes like: The Sniper-which has Hans Gudegast as a German who is left behind in some French town who starts sniping and killing American Soldiers who had just "liberated' the town. I also again cite watching the episode: Bridgehead as another good example. There are many many more such as the 2-part episode: "A Long Way Home" w/ Richard Basehart as a die-hard Waffen SS Haumpsturmfuhere who is in charge of interrorgating newly captured prisoners. He not only is smart as a whip but can be sinister when he needs to be.

Since I don't have my COMBAT series w/ me, I can't recall names to many other episodes I could quote you the titles to, that would prove you differently-otherwise, I would be glad to do so. Just in the 1st season, I could quote you the names to about 20 episodes that would prove you wrong. Maybe one of these days, I will find time to get a copy of my reviews, and start posting them here.

3) I do remember that Vic Morrow along with two children, were killed by the blades of a Helicopter-while making the movie: The Twilight Zone. I remember it very well as it happened when we took a month long vacation through a few States ending up in california-and that terrble tragedy was constantly in the news. Anyway, I have also seen The Twilight Zone movie and they did have the story concerning Vic Morrow.

That is some news to me-about Vic Morrow being slated for playing Colonel Braddock in the three MIssing in Action movies? Had he done so, you can bet his performance would have been better than Chuck Norris;s performance-no insult to Chuck Norris. However, Norris being a Vietnam Vet-made his role more interesting and real. And no-Norris never came up against an entire Viet Brigade-which is exaggerating it way toooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much.

Not to disagree with you too much as your entitled to your opinions but, I would almost bet that "Hornets Nest" is NOT as schlecht as you claim it is.

Cheers-C.

 

Hello C. Evans,

As I said earlier, I do not have a problem with someone who likes Combat, or Guns of Navaron, or Dirty Dozen, Steiner II, etc. etc. but I would certainly not share someone’s positive description to it.
The scenes that you forwarded sound very okay to me but are not familiar to me. But just because Save Private Ryan has a good first 15 minutes doesn’t mean to me that the movie itself is good.

I think it is understood that a German and an “Allied” will hardly reach a conclusion/agreement on this or on many other ww2 topics. To me it is not a matter about Germany having lost the war, but about how it is presented by Hollywood. In contra I do not have many if not to say hardly any objections to British ww2 movies.

Funny note aside; of the 10-12 people of us who used to do war gaming – micro armor and 1:72 scale (10 Allies and 2 Germans) – none of us found Combat to be good or realistic.

So please do not feel too disturbed about my post, and let me retract the harsh word “retarded” and let me replace it with “too Hollywood”.

Regards
Kruska

 

Hi Kruska, basically, it's all just a matter of opinions. Simply, I like the show, you don't and I don't have a problem with that. However, even some of the movies you mentioned, deserve to be viewed again and maybe more than once-in order to get you to "see" it from my point of view.

For instance, a long time ago, I remember liking the movie: Go Tell the Spartans. About 15 years ago, I saw it again for the first time in I don't know how many years. Anyway, I wound up disliking it. Why? I don't know? but I found I disliked it. This is kinda like me with Saving Private Ryan. At first, I thought it was an awsome movie. The next time I saw it, it didn't ""light my fires"" and I thought is was a not so good movie. Then I saw it again, and found I liked it again but for different reasons. I used to have the DvD but gave it to a friend of mine who lives in Wasahington. This movie may never be a part of my DvD collection-why? I don't really know yet.

Harts War is another example of this. I loved it watching it at the theaters. Next time I saw it, I hated it. The third time I saw it, I thoroughly enjoyed it. Go figure?

Anyway, if I ever find time to post my episode-by-episode reviews of COMBAT, i'll do so and then you can let me know your opinions of what I wroteif you would be willing to do so. The show was only off-handedly based on actual events-which means most of the episodes were meant to be totally (Fiction) and not true fack. That is something that must be realized about shows and movies-and they SHOULD be watched as something of fiction-not reality. A great case in point to that is the movie: U 571.

I too love WWII British films. Some of my all-time most favorite movies period-are:

Dunkirk w/ Sir John Mills, Bernard Lee and Lord Richard Attenborough.

The Colditz Story w/ Sir John Mills, Eric Portman, Anton Differing and Theodor Bikel.

The Password Is Courage w/ Dirk Bogarde.

Sink the Bismarck w/ Kenneth More.

The Battle of Britain w/ Michael Caine & Trevor Howard.

Just to name a few.

 

Kruska - What would you consider to be a better television treatment of WWII? I cannot think of one series that I enjoyed more. Can you? (And a big part of me is hoping that you can, because that means I am missing something!)

Cheers!

 

I think Kruska is angry with me because of a cheap parting shot he took at me in his last reply to me.

 

C. -- I certainly hope not! You always make perfect sense and present facts to support your opinions. You are the model of the well-reasoned debater!

 

No, No guy's I simply didn't have the time to answer.

C. Evans, I can certainly follow your "problem" about viewing movies for a couple of times and ending up with a different point of view.

If for example "Save Privat Ryan": If one's objective is to look at a movie displaying action, uniforms, equipment - SPR would probably be considered to be a very good movie.
The ambush on the German SdKfZ IMO is well done from US point of view and could actually have taken place in such a manner. However the German crew could also have opened fire from within the AFW and some soldiers getting out of the vehicle under fire cover, instead of running blindly out of the backhatch.
The attack by the Germans onto this village - Tigers going blindly into an non recon village or town - well
The part of the crumbling wall - offcourse all the Germans will get shot, and this ungreatfull German who ends up shooting Gi's, well there always has to be given proof of these Germans being bad.

On the other hand when the Gi's shoot down Germans with raised hands - its okay, after all they killed so many Gi's on the beach.

So to me it is just another typical allied war movie that needs to bring in these sterotypes - US good, Wehrmacht bad.

You mentioned Battle of Britain, well I feel there are no stereotypes in this movie and it is very close to history as possible for a movie.

Harts war - I don't find anything wrong with this movie - what bugs you?

The Eagle has landed - no stero types and IMO a dam good movie - despite all Krauts getting shot.

Dad's army, I love it

A very good movie IMO (sorry for my bad memory) with Michael Douglas acting as an intelligence officer setting up a spy net work.

Due to these "stereotypes" I prefer warmovies with a more non combat approach such as "The Hill" with Sean Connery or King Rat.

dgmitchel: alternative to combat - 12 o'clock high - I think it is well done - no stereotypes- as far as I recall.

Anyway, if the Germans would have won the war, I wouldn't want to know what these movies would look like - I think not much different from most allied productions.

Regards
Kruska

 

That scene was not a typical moment in war movies the filmmaker wanted to show through Capt. Miller eyes that he did witness one of so many different instances of isanities in combat. That scene alone is a specific moment were it shows that the American soldier is just as guilty of being the "bad " guy and breaks that stereo type you were pointing out. Capt. Miller witness it but was so shell shocked and numbed from combat to react to it, it was just to much for him. But he knew it was wrong as they did a closeup shot of his face.

Same as in "Letters from Iwo Jima" when the marine guards didn't want to waste time and decided to shoot the two Jap prisoners. This were true realities and did happen in any war. And the filmmaker again focus on the tragic sadness of the madness of war. SPR did have great moments and unfairly being generalized and considered a typical war film.

Philip

 

The more I read the more I realize that killing prisoners was commonplace in every theater of the war and by all combatants. It does seem that Allied troops outside of the ETO were more likely to be instructed to kill prisoners.

 

Hello Philscout,

Yes I agree - that is how one could interpret it - how one should interpret it, but I remember very well that almost every American in that Cinema in Colorado Springs was clapping their hands and exitetly shouting: yeah go kill those Motherf...... go and shoot all these bastar....

Sterotypes are meant for the broader public not the minority. and this wasn't the only "stereotype" in this movie.

BTW, I found Windtalkers to be a very good movie.

Regards
Kruska

 

Hi Krusha,

I wonder how that can be truly seen as a stereo typical moment. The filmmaker clearly showed the madness of combat in every situation. Since you agreed with me shows the filmmaker was obviously not creating a stereotypical or clique moment.

As for the audience's reaction You have to understand those were the hometown folks naturally rooting and supporting for their WWII "war heroes" their uncles, fathers and grandfathers they knew of. I mean what did you expect the audience to react after witnessing 15 minutes of all that carnage and slaughter portrayed on American soldiers on the beach? I don't see how that specific incident can be described as stereo typical or "Hollywood" filmmaking, as you have to consider and remenber all the facts are all related together before, during and after the whole battle as they all tie in.

I hope your joking and not comparing that WT is a much better less stereotypical film to SPR? Anyway our topic has gone way off from the Combat series. cheers.

Philip

 

Kruska, i've no time to reply to you today since its Din din time but, i'll be back here tomorrow for sure--C.

 

Hello Philscout,

Anyway, my appologies for diverting this thread to the other posters in this thread - maybe we should open one in regards to stereotyps in Hollywood and other war movies.

Regards
Kruska

 

OK Kruska, here we go:

Thanks actually. Yes, I have had trouble making up my mind on a few movies I have seen. Whether that's a good thing-I guess? Anyway, movies like Saving Private Ryan, Enemy At the Gates, U 571 and Harts War, are prime examples of my "problem." ;-) When I first tried to see S.P.R, I was in a sold-out packed theater sitting right next to some lady who couldn't keep her mouth shut who was saying things like: "Mi God or O 'Mi God" everytime anything happened or anytime she heard cussing going on. Needless to say, this lady ruined my first viewing of this movie. As I then had a wierd job schedule to contend with, it took me a few more weeks before I could go see that movie again. The 2nd viewing was in a slightly less packed theater and I could finally see the movie for what it was.

I wound up liking it that time out. Then several months later, I saw it on DvD and disliked the film wondering why I had liked it so much to begin with? Well, I bought the DvD-never watched it and wound up giving it to a friend who had not purchased a copy of the movie yet. This one isn't for my collection at this time.

I also first watched U 571 at the theaters. I remember enjoying it well enough. Next time I saw it, I wondered what I thought was so great about it. Third time I saw it, I liiked it again. Since then, I decided that I liked the movie and own it on DvD. I liked this movie because it is a pure work of FICTION based around true events-which is somehting I have stressed for years now that some people do not wish to understand.

I watched Harts War for the first time at the theaters and loved it. I next saw it on TV and hated it. I again saw it on the tube and very much liked it. The DvD is in my little feeble collection of war movies.

I saw Enemy At the Gates in the theaters. I enjoyed it very much even if hollywood greatly embellished certain events that allegedly happened at Stalingrad. Both you and I know different ;-)) Anyway, for a fictionalized accound of a story that supposedly happened (again both you and I know different) it was very good entertainment. I bought the DvD, and will watch it again in the future-when I need to get some of my "Stalingrad" fix. In fact, I might even watch it after the German movie: "Stalingrad;" just for kicks. If I want to fulfill my "Eastern Front Fix," then i'll rewatch Cross of Iron.

I like your assessment for SPR and mostly agree with it. Somethings were far-fetched but-then again, this movie too, has to be watched as a fictionalized story taking place during a real event.

I agree with you, the Battle of Britain movie was very well made and is a favorite of mine.



C.

 

Just bought the complete "Combat" series for Christmas and I've just finished disc 2 of 40 and loving it. I originally watched what was probably the last two years of the show as a kid. We would all go out and play "Army" the next morning after watching the night before. This series was really well done, it would cost quite a bit to duplicate this 40 episode today.

 

I too have the complete series set. I just started watchin Season 4 of it last night-after a 2-3 week hiatus-to catch up on other DvDs I just got-including the Bogart Signature collection 2--and the Errol Flynn Westerns collection & about 25 or so other movies.

 

I watched all of Combat! about 3 years ago and I still miss it. The characters were "real" and the story line compelling. The best military show ever!