Rifle Grenades?

Does anybody no which countries used rifle grenades, and how common they were for each country?

I am particularly interested in Russia and Germany.

I have read that Russian rifle grenades were not very good, and in 1943 the RPG anti tank grenade started to be used. But I think this was hand thrown?

 

This is quite a good start, for names and pictures at least:
Inert-Ord.net - A Varied and Detailed Display of Collectable Military Ordnance
I don't think the Soviets issued rifle grenades on any great scale, not entirely sure the germans made that much use of them either(?), Small Mortars, Panzerfausts, Projectors etc. being able to do the same job while leaving that most essential accoutrement, the rifle, still able to perform it's critical job without fiddling about removing adapters or changing ammunition.

Interesting contemporary report, (that may contradict my instinct on German usage) from the always interesting 'Lone Sentry' here:
Lone Sentry: German Rifle-Grenade Equipment (WWII Tactical and Technical Trends, No. 36, October 21, 1943)

Cheers,
Adam.

 

The rifle grenade was not exactly one of the more popular weapons of WW2, or was it? A fraction of the weight of the hand grenade and with a chancy accuracy I'm not really seeing it as a war winning weapon.

 

Ahh-------- War winning weapon?

No I guess not, but the US Army manufactured the following numbers and types of rifle grenades. Lots and lots of rifle grenades.

27,292,000 antitank
3,400,000 smoke (including WP)
325,000 fragmentation (impact)

What's really interesting is that production of antitank rifle grenades went way up in 1944 while production of the smoke rifle grenades peaked in 1944 and again in 1945. This coorelates pretty well with the intensity of the fighting in the major theaters so they were used a great deal in combat. The poor little rifle grenade is just not a sexy weapon so it doesn't get much press.

Five-Zero-Nan

 

Perhaps designed based on WWI warfare of static trenches.

 

I imagine they were created on the basis of the Hand-Grenade and its limited reach (as far as one could throw it). The Rifle-Grenade allowed the use of the Rifle and with a modification (from what i know) enable it to launch a grenade further then one could throw it. I'm sure once you became familiar with the weapon you could hit targets with it pretty accurately.

I imagine one can draw a line from that grenade rifle to the grenade launcher. Or at the least the same line of thought. Just saw Hamburger Hill on SPIKE and saw the grenade-launcher used there.

 

Most nations had rifle grenades. Their use varies somewhat. The Germans manufactured and issued theirs on a fairly wide basis and it saw some use particularly as an anti-tank weapon until the Panzerfaust became widespread.
The US issued 4 rifle grenade attachments per squad in their units. Most kept one or two in service. The rifle grenade was very popular with US units, particularly in Europe. The anti-tank round (the M9A1) was as accurate and effective as a bazooka with a bit less range. The troops prefered it due to not having to carry a bazooka and rockets. The standard grenade launcher used a clip to hold a Mk II grenade on it. Some units also used 60mm mortar bombs instead in urban fighting.
The British also had rifle grenades in service. Theirs were a little less popular with the troops as they could quickly damage the stock of a gun regularly used to fire them making the rifle less accurate.
The Japanese had grenade dischargers (the "knee" mortar) instead not issuing a rifle grenade as did the Italians (the 45mm Brixia mortar) and Russians (50mm mortars).

 

Thanks for all your replies guys, I am glad I found this forum. Your prompt feed back is most helpful.

What about infantry smoke grenades?
Did any countries use them as standard issue? (particularly Russia and Germany?)

I read somewhere that these were in fact rare commodities?

 

During the Murmansk runs, 800 Allied ships in 40 convoys sent to Russia......
22,000 aircraft
375,000 trucks
51,500 jeeps
8,700 tractors
7,000 tanks/armored vehicles
1,900 locomotives
millions of miles of telephone cable
rifles, machine guns, tires, radio sets
15,000,000 pairs of boots, and
343,700 tons of ammunition.....
I'm sure some of Five-Zero-Nans #s for rifle grenades were among them.

unless of course, the ones with all the rifle grenades were sunk.....97 of them were.

 

This looks like a reputable page for the Garand M7 launcher.
M7 Grenade Launcher


I was having fun looking around in the link that Von Poop posted, and found this. This is new to me. A Pz.B.39 converted into a weapon for firing the rifle grenade.
Lone Sentry: German AT Grenade Rifle (WWII Tactical and Technical Trends, No. 37, November 4, 1943)

 

I believe I've read that the Bazooka used a very slightly modified rifle grenade as its warhead. If that is indeed the case some of the rifle grenades that were manufactured may have showed up in the field as Bazooka rounds.

 

Attached is a photo of two German rifle grenades from my collection.

 

I think the bazooka rocket was derived from a thrown grenade. The grenade was found to be too heavy to be thrown. The designers of the bazooka had no rocket to use (the had the propellant to use though), so the failed grenade was attached.

 

The light mortar or heavy grenade discharge such as the Japanese Type 89 heavy grenade discharger is probably a better alternative to the the rifle grenade for many applications (other than direct fire / anti-tank).

The Japanese Army had three Type 89 issued per rifle platoon (concentrated in a grenade discharger squad). This 50mm trigger fired weapon (nicknamed the "Knee Mortar" by the Allies) was a versatile and accurate weapon in skilled hands. It was able to throw a Type 89 spin stabilized shell weighing a hefty 793g (1.7lb) with an impact fuse up to 670m (usual effective range was ~120m).

It could also be used to throw a modified Type 91 hand grenade 50 - 170m. The hand grenade had a 7 sec time fuse and was better suited for jungle warfare where the impact fuse of the Type 89 shell could be prematurely actuated by foliage. The time fuse of the Type 91 hand grenade is initiated by removing the safety pin and striking the fuse housing sharply against a hard object like the helmet. When launched from the Type 89, the safety pin is removed and the grenade inserted into the tube. Operating the trigger would set off the propellent charge and the impulse of launching the grenade out of the tube also activates the time fuse. A three man crew, two to prepare the grenades / shells and insert them into the tube while a gunner aims and pulls the trigger, could manage up to 25 rounds a minute.

The Type 89 is always fired with the barrel held at an angle of 45 degrees (some even had a spirit level sight to let the gunner know when the barrle is held at the correct angle). How far down-range the projectile travels is controlled by a range adjustment device. This varies the position of projectile in the barrel. At minimum range setting, the projectile is held very high in the barrel. Upon firing, the projectile is only subjected to the "push" of the propellent gases within the barrel only a short time, hence it would travel only a short distance. This is in contrast to having the projectile sit further down the barrel and subjected to the push of the propellent gases for a longer period (for a longer range).

Type 89 “Knee Mortar” (Grenade Launcher)
HyperWar: Handbook on Japanese Military Forces

Chinese accounts of the early actions in the Sino-Japanese War (e.g. fighting around Shanghai) indicated that Japanese grenade dischargers took a heavy toll of Chinese machine gunners. One Chinese brigade at Shanghai lost 32 out of 36 heavy machine guns. This prompted the Chinese to have machine gunners to change positions frequently - and to develop their own versions of this weapon. The crude Chinese copy was called the Type 27 (manufactured in the 27th year of the Chinese Republic - 1938). This smooth bore weapon was based on the predecessor of the Type 89 - the Taisho Type 10 grenade discharger. The Chinese weapon could launch the Japanese Type 91 hand grenade or its Chinese copy out to a range of 250m, further than the Taisho Type 10 but could not match the range of the Type 89 when firing the Type 89 spin stabilized shell. Nevertheless, the Type 27 proved popular with the Chinese and captured examples were even used by the Japanese against the Allies since it could launch Japanese Type 91 grenades.

The British Army had two 2-inch mortars issued to the HQ section in each platoon. The WWII version fired a 2.25lb bomb out to 500yd but lacked the range adjustment and time-fused option of the Type 89. Nevertheless, the British found that skilled operators were able to make adjustments (to the angle of the barrel) after a ranging shot to effectively engage targets.

2-inch mortar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Goes to show there are more ways than one to "skin the cat" and the Japanese way wasn't half bad ...

 

Chinese Type 27 50mm grenade discharger



ChineseType27grenadedischarger.jpg - Image - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

 

Most of these small grenade dischargers were virtually worthless under combat conditions. They were horribly inaccurate, after all there is no aiming system. Even the more complex ones like the Italian Brixia mortar or British 2" were of very limited value due to the relative ineffectiveness of their bomb.
True rifle grenades were more successful as they did not require an infantry unit to tote along some extra (and heavy) piece of gear. This is what made the US rifle grenade so popular.
The US one was also popular with the troops as it was designed as a tail unit onto which you were to clip a standard Mk II grenade. Many units clipped on 60mm mortar bombs in urban fighting. These could be fired about 30 to 50 yards with sufficent accuracy to put them through a window across a wide street; with devastating effects on the target end.
The German system was good too but, it required alot of expensive machined parts including the grenades themselves. Not the most intelligent choice for a mass produced weapon in wartime.

 

As I said earlier, different armies have different doctrines and preferences. The Japanese heavy grenade launchers certainly made a big impression on the Chinese during the Sino-Japanese War. This weapon also impressed a distinguished USMC officer Col. Merritt Edson, commanding officer of the 5th Marines. So much so that he said the following:

The US adaptor for the Mk I or Mk II fragmentation grenade to be launched from a rifle is certainly an elegant solution. It filled the gap between the hand thrown grenade and the 60mm mortar for the US forces without having to go to the time and expense of developing a new weapon like the Type 89. However, like any weapon, the US M7 rifle grenade launcher had its "plus and minus". (For example, a special blank cartridge is needed, accidentally discharging ball ammunition with a grenade on the launcher would spell disaster.) Nevertheless, this worked for US forces in WWII but one could argue that the Japanese grenade launcher section might have worked better. The M7 was an auxiliary weapon issued on an "as needed" basis. The Japanese 3 men teams had a specially trained "gunner" and two ammunition carriers. Working together, the 3-men teams can achieve a higher rate of fire with the Type 89 than the (part-time) rifle grenade operator.

 

I think that I have only seen a rifle grenade being shot once. That was in the film "To Hell and Back", of course Audie Murphy was the one who shot! It was against a tank.

Mats

 

In the 1960s film 'Battle of the Bulge' theres a scene of US soldiers disabling Tiger II tanks with rifle grenades. If only it had been so easy

 

I suggest that you watch that scene again more carefully. The rifle grenades were portrayed as not being effective.

That first Tiger II (played by a Spanish Army M-47) was disabled by a bazooka (played by what looks like a Blindicide which, with its 83mm tube and shield, look more like a Panzerschrek!) This was after a rocket failed to penetrate the turret and the bazooka man was killed by return fire. The character played by Charles Bronson (Maj. Wollansky?) then aimed for and hit the running gear.