What if the Holocaust didn't happen

The teachings of the Torah,(jewish law)
"Exile means that jews are required to be loyal citizens in every country in which they live.Force of arms and violence against any people,including in the holy land, is forbidden. Throughout the centuries,all jewery believed that the end of the jewish exile would come about,via miraculous Divine means and usher in the peaceful salvation of all mankind. It will be a time of universal peace and brotherhood, in service of the one God. Redemption from exile never meant a materialistic 'state of israel'.
Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss,
Neturei Karta International
Neturei Karta - Orthodox Jews United Against Zionism

 

Final solution was 1942 wasn't it, and at that stage outcome of war would be same. Many lives would be spared obviously.

 

Holocaust was the extermination of a people.

Whos to say that if the holocaust did not accure, the Jews still would not have been persecuted or discriminated against?

 

18Mile

I would make one comment only in response to your posting.

Anyone who wishes to make a case against the State of Israel by using the likes of Rabbi Yisroel David Weiss has surely not studied Neturei Karta or/and this odious man in any depth.
One example is this meeting with the President of Iran:

YouTube - President Ahmadinejad Meets Neturei Karta Rabbis - 9/24/2007


Ron Goldstein

 

Yeah...I think this thread has got out of hand, anyways the only way the Holocaust couldn't have occurred is if Hitler was killed in 1939 or was simply overthrown anywhere between 1933-1940, there were Conspirators in the Army who did not like Hitler's policy against civilians and Jews and wanted a more moral Germany based on Christian Conservative values, the problem with this was during their talks with Britain they wanted to keep Austria, Czechlosavakia and the 1914 border they had with Russia. The British would hardly have agreed with this, and thus the war would continue, but under this new leadership of an anti-Nazi Government who knows they might have got a peace settlement finally.

 

The only way that Hitler could achieve his goals without a holocaust, would be to promote a program that would allow a Jewish state. It does not have to be based around Jerusalem. Many locations had been proposed by Jewish leaders to base a home land around. If Hitler had managed to get his Jewish constituents to accept a conquered land as their own, it is possible that they would also take part in securing that land. I suppose with the traditional animosity that faced Jews in Russia, there would be a potential to give them a part of Russian territory.

From a logical perspective, it could work. It may even give Germany enough of an edge that they could beat the Russians. But Hitler did not allow logic to rule his tyranny. If he had been logical, then he could have made peace with the west, while he concentrated his efforts on the east. He would have not mistreated the conquered territories and people, instead, he would have embraced them before and after. Any chance for a German win is based on Hitler not making mistakes. But he was a megalomanic without a real grasp of reality. Yet, his death would have been just as bad for Germany. His death at the peak of German expansion would not have ensured a German success, but would have likely led to chaos as competing factions tore the country apart.

 

Germany lost a lot of talented people because of the anti-jewish sentiment. Scientist, engineers, etc, and they could have been a big help to german industry and economy. Hitler with an A-bomb. Pretty scarey.

 

Deleted as requested by K Staton.

 

As already said, I believe that WWII would have been avoided had Jews not been a scape goat the Nazis would not have been elected and, therefore, WWII would not have started.

However, if WWII did somehow break out I believe that the wartime atrocities would be focused more on the Russian warcrimes than Germans.

 

Perhaps if world wide Jewry didn't declare war on Germany in the 30's, things might have turned out different.

 

Perhaps if Stalin had accomplished what Hitler had, then I too believe the focus would have been on the Red Army.

 

Are you for real? [size=-2]( rhetorical question )[/size]

 

Clarification hardly required is it?
Read 18mile's other posts and you have a barely disguised 'agenda' going on.
A consistent apologist for the Nazis slowly feeling confident enough to start expressing an unpleasant point of view more openly.

Is it me, or is there a little rash of this romanticised apologism breaking out around here recently...

 

Err 18 mile, please can we deal with the facts.

 

The Jews were hardly the only group persecuted by Nazi Germany. They were just one group in a literal plethoria of such groups although seemingly one of the most singled out. As for their impact on Hitler's rise to power I doubt that they made much difference. The Nazi party never received a majority vote (I think 34% was their best turnout) and Hitler came to power as a combination of backroom deals and power brokering to form a coallition government. He then used criminal techniques (burning the Reichstag etc.) as an excuse to grab power and become a dictator.
If anything, the communists were far more feared in Germany by the general populace than the Jews.

 

I think we need to clarify the lack of a holocaust (murders of innocent Jews, Gypsies, etc) vs a lack of anti-Semitism. The Nazi party could have easily acheived it's aims by a stringent program of anti-Semitism without the killing. Forced emigration, reduction of rights, etc. The outcome of the war would not have been any different because the Allies were just too strong for Germany. I'm sure the Nuremburg hangings would have been eliminated or greatly reduced.
The interesting thought would be the fact that Israel would never have come into existence. What affect would that have been on the Cold war in a region that pitted US interests (Israel) against Soviet interests (Arab States). Would it be Arab-Persian hatred today instead of Arab-Israeli? Would there be so vehement anti-Americanism on the Arab Street. Maybe we can actually blame Hitler for 9/11...if no holocaust, no Israel, no Arab hatred of US, no 9/11...hmmmm

 

Interesting idea's grossborn. This is more along the idea of what i was asking. Hitler Never came into power using the death of all Jews as his hook. There is a real difference between anti-semitism and flat out murder. I don't believe that the nazi party would have come into exsistance had people (german or otherwise) known what his future intent was. Mass hated takes time for people to rationalize. It takes stages, and that is exactly what the nazi's did. Slowly but surely dehumanized the jews untill the masses no longer cared. I am also curious how much the german people actually knew. In the midst of the war were they even aware of the death camps or was the info suppressed. After all you belief what you want to believe. Ow and on a side note 18mile needs a hug.

 

A very dangerous question! this one could get someone in trouble, Interesting posts everyone but I will pass on this for fear of ruffling someones feathers ...