The British Bren and Sten guns: why?

Blimey Stefan things have changed.... I knew at least one left handed guy on range who was quite capable of causing havoc. Im sure I got my crossed rifles in fact becuase with a magazine of 20 rounds to your front 200 metres carry on and my one inch grouping had 27 identifiable marks, not bad for a 20 round magazine.

As for losing a weapon, god help all those guys at Dunkirk. Now theres an interesting charge sheet.

Which brings me to a story I read a while back, during retreat to Dunkirk, a bn commander, may have been one of the Guards bn's bemoaning his mens complaints on lack of fire power to hit back at Luftwafe, told his men to treat them as a shoot, bringing the bren to the shoulder and take them at the shoulder like a grouse shoot.
Good one that, should have tried it himself, just where would the ejected cartridges end up there.

The sten is a was a good weapon for use depending on what duty you had, better a sten in a Saracen than watching the squaddies fumbling with their slr's Better to sling and use in confined spaces. Not so good to take on someone out in the open.
They probably still exist. I know I was part of a surprise check of a RAF firestation a few years ago on a small west country base, and was amazed at being handed 50 of em one by one on a camp that had about 12 service men.

 

And would you believe it, straight after posting, saw a members gallery photo of a bren at the shoulder on on a tripod...now I dont mean on its tripod I think the Col, meant like a shot gun.

 

Don't think it counts if you're told to dump everything and run

 

Most of the salient points regarding the Sten have been covered here thoroughly so I will add only my personal opinion. I never much cared for this weapon as it lacks (for me) any type of visual appeal but it was cheap and it got the job done. When Heydrich was assasinated however, the sten they attempted to use jammed and it was a mills bomb, exploding outside the mercedes limousine that nailed heydrich. he died days later from infection caused by the grenade driving bits of shrapnel and upholstery into his body.

 

So the Sten jamming was a good thing after all :evil1:

 

In the RNA we let left handers use their master arm. What is the problem Stefan...? Ah you lot are equipped with the WORST weapon ever constructed. And it will take an eye out if fired left handed... (No offense, but the SA 80 is no friend of mine)

 

In this case...sorta...those 2 assassins were killed by the SS...that couldn't have been fun...

 

Hi All,
The stengun and Mp40 mags are interchangable.
I personally like my stengun Mk2 S. But for pure effectiveness i prefer my Brens.

Matt

 

Sten in use

YouTube - Sten mk.II

Richie

:smg::tommygun:

 

the sten was an inadequate weapon. Very bad ergonomics and probably very inaccurate or i miss my guess.
As a bullet hose it must have been ok for a magazine or two, if it worked. But after that how are you going to keep shooting? - you cant grab the magazine and the barrel area is too hot.
Some sten models had a wooden stock and/or wooden foregrip, which alleviated the heating problem. But if you were going to the trouble of adding wooden furniture why not just make a better subgun? which the British finally did, when they made the Sterling in the 1950's.

 

That'd be it. Actually these days firing left handed is guarenteed to split your lip at best, at worst, take out your front teeth.

That said, I thought the 'no left handed soldiers' thing probably goes quite a way back in the British army, it's the kind of thing they would enforce for no readily apparent reason.

 

Tony,

If you don't me addressing you with your first name... I hate to contradict someone as knowledgable about small arms as you, but wasn't it the case that the Sten had a horrendous reputation as a poor quality weapon? The problem was in the craftsmanship of the manufacturering process so I presume those would be ironed out in the later marks, but still...

Stefan,
As for penalty for losing weapons apparently that was an endemic problem. There were harsh disciplinary measures against those who threw away their weapons but in war time those can be very hard to enforce, especially when the superior officers turned a blind eye to it. Allegedly US infantry reguarly repored their BARs as "lost" in order to lay their hands on more automatic weapons. It was also not necessary to lose your old weapon to use a captured SMG. They were light weapons. I have read awhile ago a memoir of a GI, who lugged a M1 Thompson in addition to his rifle. He eventually let it go because it was too heavy (it's a Thompson) and he could not find enough ammo. I also read in the memoir of a Russian Tank Bn commander who said that his Tank Army commander once ordered every tank rider in the SMG Bn to carry a German MP-40 in addition to their PPSh-41 because their advance outstripped their lines of communications.There are extensive record of German and Russian soldiers fighting with captured arms, especially SMG. I would speculate that the desire for more firepower and shortages in weapons encouraged such practice. I know I would not punish my soldiers for putting more automatic firepower in my squads if I am a war time platoon or company leader.

 

G'day all,

New to the forum - and I know I'm very late to this party but thought I would share some comments from somebody in my family who actually used the Sten in combat during the Burma campaign. My Great Uncle Eddie, who is in his 90's, was a member of the Chindits under Maj Gen Ord Wingate.

He was in charge of the vehicles and told me he had a Sten clipped up in the cab of his truck ... his comments about the reputation of the Sten was that they were pretty unstable ... his joke to me was that you could toss a Sten into a cave or tunnel and it would randomly fire off its magazine without you having to be there.

Cheers, TR.

 

I use to know a guy who fought in Burma during WW2, who lost his bren gun while he was digging a fox hole, a Bren Carrier ran over it !!!!

He got fined by his RSM for it...... he was still annoyed about it 30 years later

 

Just found this

FUBAR (F***ed Up Beyond All ... - Google Book Search

Some nicknames for the beloved the Sten.

I remember my father telling me the Woolworth one.

The Bren was (and is) an excellent weapon - I had one when I was at school.

No - it wasn't a rough school, I was in the Cadet Force

Richie

 

Sapper (Brian) remarks on the Sten in his thread http://www.ww2f.com/honor-service-valor/13272-sword-beach-bremen-veterans-tale-sapper.html in post #19.

 

While on National Service 1949, we were firing the Sten. We were instructed NOT to use the magazine as a hold, but to curl the thumb round the barrel in front of the mag' and curl the fingers round the r/h side of the barrel. One drawback to this, is the little finger is very close to the ejection slot, ouch! We also used the SMLE (Short Magazine Lee Enfield) A real weapon. I was a natural shot and could put ten rounds in a four inch group at 200 yards in one minute twenty seconds. I didn't fire the Bren untill I joined the RAF three months after demob from the Royal Artillery. The Bren is a weapon Pas Excellence! Very accurate, very high rate of fire if needed and very little recoil, all the recoil energy being used to move the action. Being a good shot, I could remove the centre of the target at 100 yARDS!

Ken

 

Jan Kubiš and Jozef Gabčík who were the assasins of Reinhard Heydrich are the subject of a great deal of mythology. Jan Kubiš, who was already suffering from injuries sustained from his own bomb, was mortally wounded by a hand genade during fighting in the church that the partisans had taken refuge, he was captured unconsious by the Germans but was declaired DOA at hospital (whether this was due to his injuries or to a botched attempt to revive him is unknown).

Jozef Gabčík commited suicide with other patisans in the crypt of the Church, therefore neither were killed by the SS.

That Jozef Gabčík Sten "jammed" during the attempt of Heydrich is again mythology, is there any report that can back this up, it could have failed to fire for many reasons.
1). Faulty weapon - damage to magazine feed, damaged firing pin or faulty trigger unit
2). Faulty ammunition. self explanitory.
3). Incorrect maintenance. there was a tendency to overmaintain the Sten, field maintenance should be limited to inspection and dry cleaning of dust from the mechanism -no oil -without the dirt grooves which were a feature of the Sterling oiling caused serious jamming with dirt ingress.
4). Incorrect drill - if the weapon was held open breach for any length of time this could cause it to latch up ie not release when the trigger was pulled. This could be overcome by easing the mechanism, but you can't afford to get a stoppage like this at a critical moment.

In fairness to Gabčík the weapon was fairly new being in service for less than a year, there would be no opportunity to test the weapon.

The bomb was a No.75 Hawkins not a Mills bomb. comprising slightly over a pound(1/2 kg) of explosive wrapped in a pound of metal, little wonder Kubiš was injured by his own bomb.

My personal view of the Sten.

My very limited firing of a MkIII supports what I was told by instructors that on a 25m range, repetative fire, a 4 inch group or better was expected and 10inch grouping or better out to 100m. For me in single shot mode it was really accurate at 100m. the only problem was it is completely unbalanced especially compared to the L2A3 Sterling which was remarkable (but I have had more firing on this type) and a selective fire version of the Uzi which was balanced but very heavy.

On Auto they all try to climb but if you fire as you are instructed to do the shots generally hit the target at shorter range which is what it was designed to do.

steve

 

I know that this thread is old but I have some things to add.
Firstly, the Sten's side loading magazine was not to be used as a grip. This would most probably jam the magazine or weapon. It was, however, much easier to use in the prone position than say, an MP40. I'm not sure that any soldier would actually swap their weapon unless it was broken or had run out of ammo - and even then I'm sure they'd bring whatever was left of it back to base (it's hardly like a small submachine-gun could slow you down any). I'm pretty sure that the ammo from a MP40 could be used in a Sten (and possibly the magazines themselves), if I'm not mistaken this was so soldiers could put the dead enemies ammo to better use - clearly a reflection of the financial situation the world was in and everyone’s readiness to make do.
As for the Bren, I think I heard somewhere that the top magazine was to allow easy use in the prone position (although drums/belts work better at this in my opinion AND with a higher capacity) and something to-do with the actual feeding system’s reliance on gravity...
This is just my opinion base on some things I've heard over the last few months of researching WW2, I'm not an expert by any means so all/some of this may be incorrect; it's something to consider nonetheless.
Thanks,
Ryan