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Were the Nazis Christians?

Discussion in 'Information Requests' started by PactOfSteel, Jan 18, 2008.

  1. Stefan

    Stefan Cavalry Rupert

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    Yup. Hope no one thought I was claiming otherwise...
     
  2. WotNoChad?

    WotNoChad? Member

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    Quite, although they did a good line in exploiting or hijacking those of others.

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  3. SS-Hauptsturmfuhrer

    SS-Hauptsturmfuhrer Member

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    The problem that exists for Communism is that it has never been achieved. It is partly to do with it's complete inability to police itself. For example ,it was not held accountable via the vehicle of democracy.

    Communism also had a problem with the liberalisation of the economy. ie it was centrally controlled.

    Equally Capitism in it's purest form is also doomed. Whilst , Adam Smiths so-called invisable hand is perfectly capable to setting a value for a can of bake beans it is clearly incapable is revealing the socail value within a nations health or education.

    Schizuki's post above is very interesting because some Stalinist Communism Partys within Europe never really saw Fascist as the beast , it's was always international capitalism. Trotskite Partys are not considered Communism but rather extreme leftwing socialists. I think it's fair to say there is a difference.


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  4. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    "Interesting" that both Stalin and Hitler as the leading figures for communism and nazism considered the Jews the enemy?!
     
  5. Stefan

    Stefan Cavalry Rupert

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    Ahh but that (alo an element of marxist ideology) is because Fascism was seen as the 'last gasp of capitalism' shortly before it's inevitable death.
     
  6. SS-Hauptsturmfuhrer

    SS-Hauptsturmfuhrer Member

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    Fascism is nothing but capitalist reaction.
    Leon Trotsky
     
  7. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Intersting philosophical point of view, but I have to disagree with Trotsky. If Fascism is Capitalism and if Stalinism is Communism, then Communism is Fascism and therefore Capitalism, which wouldn't work. This is also one of the reasons Trotskists had their own doctrine to avoid being assimilated to this vicious circle.

    In fact what we call Communism in the Soviet Union should be called Socialsim. Communism was their ultimate goal, which they never achieved. They had at the most a Facist Socialistic Republic aiming towards Communism. Just as Fascism is the last stand of Captitalism, it was also the alter ego of Communism which was nothing but an utopy. Hence both Stalin and Hitler had several things in common and their desire to abolish religion was one of them.
     
  8. SS-Hauptsturmfuhrer

    SS-Hauptsturmfuhrer Member

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    I am saddened that your rather broad brush has come to the above conclusion. I have to disagree simply because reformist ,or if you wish, progressive Socialism has actively and consistantly shaped the politcal landscape we endure and enjoy today.

    Whether you are a Christian Democrat, Conservative, Liberal or Green you will have had to concede and acknowledge the battles which have been fought many times in the past by Socialist movements. Think of changes that have been made to social services, healthcare, Industrial developement and justice system by socialist movements.

    None of these successful battles have been fought under the banner of Communism. The Trade Union movements have paid there dues almost exclusively to Socialst Party's or Social Democratic Party's that have enjoyed wide and popular political support. I cannot recall any Western progressive left political party that has been successful and aligned itself with the baggage of totalitarian oppressive doctrine.

    Progressive Socialists have achieved the formentioned reforms because of their often bold unacceptance of Capitalism in it's most naked form and a commitment to humanity.

    We would not enjoy the social freedom and social justice we all take for granted today without progressive and democratic socialism.

    The historic ascent of humanity, taken as a whole, may be summarized as a succession of victories of consciousness over blind forces - in nature, in society, in man himself.
    Leon Trotsky
     
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  9. schizuki

    schizuki Member

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    And we must also remember that social freedom and social justice are luxury goods that can be afforded only by societies that enjoy the bounties of capitalism. Indeed, the greatest social freedom is the freedom from want, and it is capitalist societies which have done the most to eliminate want, along with disease eradication and extension of lifespan.

    I'm reminded of the man from Bombay who was trying to move to the United States, the supposedly "heartless" capital of capitalism where Europeans think the poor live like Hoggarthian beasts. When asked, “Why are you so eager to come to America?” he replied, “I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat.”
     
  10. SS-Hauptsturmfuhrer

    SS-Hauptsturmfuhrer Member

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    Poor man. He has obviously watching to many Bollywood movies, I'd say. If he had came to the Europe he would of found he would also qualify for a free education, healthcare and more specificically this social status would of extend beyond the value of his labour.
     
  11. schizuki

    schizuki Member

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    Perhaps he's a rational, mature adult who knows that there is no such thing as "free" anything - ultimately, someone is paying for it. Those who think things are "free" tend to be freeloaders.

    For instance, Europe's "free" healthcare is paid for by its taxpayers. And their budgets "free" up much of the money from what would go for defense spending, which can be extremely low because of what is effectively U.S. taxpayer-subsidized European defense via our European bases and treaty obligations.

    Thankfully, the majority of our legal immigrants tend to be independent, hardworking people who make positive contributions to our country, and whose tax dollars and charitable contributions will help the less fortunate minority who physical or mental handicaps make it absolutely necessary for them to be dependent upon others.

    You're happy with your system and it gibes with your value system. Good for you. Just don't take unwarranted attitudes of moral superiority over it.
     
  12. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Let's steer this thread back to somewhere near it's original topic, please.
     
  13. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Don't get me wrong I am not criticising social progress, nor am I puting Stalinism and socialism in the same basket, or calling modern socialists facists. I was just pointig out why Communism could not be achieved and why Trotsky had chosen another path. (Sorry if I made myself misunderstood).
    We are actually talking about two different concepts. I mentionned Soviet Socialism tending towards Communism. You are talking about Socialism like it is defined in our modern democracies. Correct me if I'm wrong.
    I was also drawing a parallel between communism ans fascism and emphasize the fact that both Nazism and Communism tried to smother religion. (getting the topic on track again):)
     
  14. SS-Hauptsturmfuhrer

    SS-Hauptsturmfuhrer Member

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    The value system within the society I live in is where people believe that their tax contributions not only benefit themselves but also they neighbours whether they are immigrants or not. It's called socially cohesive governance and by and large it's considered by most political partys and different European countries to be a template for social success.

    I'm not saying it's not without it's problems neither am I saying that from time to time it's not in need close public scrutiny,however, thats democracy as we know it.

    As far as our defence budget, well I think by and large it's not an issue here even with Conservatives. Thats despite the UK's moral and politcal interjection in allowing US Neo Cons to start an Imperial Crusade against a country, that until Allied Military intervention, had absolutey nothing to do with Al-Qaeda.

    A War that my country has lost a Prime Minister too. On personal note own cousin has fought in and a colleagues son has lost his ability to assimulate in regular civilian life.

    I guess I will politely refer to the tragic episode as a great friend standing with his only reliable friend even when he knows they are wrong. Such is the bond and gratiude of debt Britain has toward the US since of WWII.

    However, I believe the UK has payed it's price and good friends can only remain good friends when they can be honest and forthright with each other.
     
  15. SS-Hauptsturmfuhrer

    SS-Hauptsturmfuhrer Member

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    Point taken.:eek:
     
  16. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    Now we are talking. I drink to that one. :)

    Regarding Christians, there was a gap between the official trend and facts. Religion is everywhere. crosses on graves (even E.Ks) but especially the tradition of deathcards, which had a curiculum on one side and a religious psalm or icone (or both on the other) . Besides several versions of the cross could be chosen at the printers going from the chisrtian cross to the the iron cross with or without a small swastika inside. For those interested there is a special "deathcard thread" with many examples.
     
  17. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    in regards to d. cards Skip I think we can agree that many W-SS Landsers cards do not have a cross but the broken nordic symbolism instead, keeping it highly a non-Christian attitude. A question was brought up about padres following along in the footsteps of ground troops which is true in the army, Luftwaffe ground truppen and the Kriegsmarine.......I do not think they existed amongst the W-SS ranks ?
     
  18. Skipper

    Skipper Kommodore

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    This drives towards two challenges:

    1° does anyone have a deathcard from an ss soldier with a regular Christian cross?

    2° does any one have pics of a padre with ss soldiers. I have pictures of a fleld mass for Heer and Luft, but no SS troops.
     
  19. Erich

    Erich Alte Hase

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    to answer well sort of Skipper on the back of some W-SS cards is just Maria holding Christ or just her but not really showing a cross
     
  20. Herr Oberst

    Herr Oberst Member

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    What's a matter the rantings of subsidized idealists bothering you, careful they'll want more of your money to pay for their socialistic/communist whims;)

    Although their actions from 1917 onward caused a definite reactive movement and provided fuel for fascism. But one has to ask, was life under Victoria's children so bad compared to the death and destruction that followed? Christianity wasn't strong enough to prevent cousins from going to war.
     

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