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Holocaust: result of a long-term plan or vicissitude of war?

Discussion in 'WWII General' started by rcaf_87, Mar 6, 2008.

  1. rcaf_87

    rcaf_87 recruit

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    Just wanted to know everyones thought on the subject! I think it was a long term plan, pre-war, and Nazism ideology demanded extermination.
     
  2. GrossBorn

    GrossBorn Member

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    I think the anti-Semitism was of course an integral part of Nazi Ideology...however, the killing of Jews, Gypsies, etc. was made easier because of the war. If peace had been realized in 1940 or if the war had not broken out, deportation of the Jews was a more likely end result rather than killing...just MHO.
     
  3. acker

    acker Member

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    It's a very, very good way to gain power in a thoroughly destabilized region. By falsely blaming a small, much-hated, somewhat well-to-do minority with all of Germany's problems, you simultaneously...

    1: Gain support from general populace.
    2: Steal tons of money to help finance an aggressive war from a relatively small populace.
    3: Restore "national honor" by blaming previous losses on "treachery".
    4: Redistribute the wealth.
    5: Mobilize future slave workers for a future war industry.

    Not a bad plan if you don't account for the obvious. Like genocide and aggressive warfare.
     
  4. T. A. Gardner

    T. A. Gardner Genuine Chief

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    I would agree that the war made systematic extermination easier but, even had it not broken out the Nazis would still have done the same things to likely a lesser degree. They certainly would have expanded and made a systematic effort to segregate the "undesirable" population groups into ghettos or have them self-deport. They would have definitely used these groups, the Jews in particular, as a "crisis" issue on which they could expand power and enact laws to increase their control on the nation as a whole. This is a very, very common ploy of Leftist groups throughout the 20th century and even today. Create an artificial crisis then propose a solution involving an expansion of government and a necessary restriction on individual freedoms as the solution. Wrap the whole thing in pleasing political double-talk and get the general population to buy in.
    Using a gulag system and ghettos might depopulate undesirable groups slower but it is highly likely the Nazi regieme would have done this in a thorough and systematic manner to finish their perceived crisis.
     
  5. Chuikov64th

    Chuikov64th Member

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    Anybody ever look into the Zionists? They had a policy too and that was to restore the state of Israel. It's really hazy and distorted, spotty information on them but they in the least did nothing to help the vast majority of Jews in Europe politically or otherwise.

    I think that the more radical amongst them didn't care what happened to Europes Jews. If you were only Jewish in heritage and not of the same mindset (extreme) you were not worth helping.
    In the 30s there was a lot of actions that were never taken that could have been had a lot more attention been brought to the subject.

    Just exactly why the Holocaust happened I am not able to understand but it is easy enough to say that the depths men are capable of reaching should make you think we are capable of anything. Scarey when you insert nuclear weapons into the picture. Really scarey.
     
  6. TA152

    TA152 Ace

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    Talking to older people of that era, Jews were not well thought of through out Europe and in the USA. I suppose because they stayed in their own group and people did not understand them but I am not really sure.

    Anouther "undesirable" population that was nearly wiped out were the American Indians. I don't know why they were hated so much but they were.

    It might be human nature because you see it through out history. The Serbs and Croats and Muslems, the Hutto's and Tutsies, Pol Pot and Cambodia, the Protestants and Catholics at different times and locations, the Spaniards and the Inca's, Aztecs, and Myain's.
     
  7. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    The Idea was definitely to get rid of the Jews, and this begun with sending them out of the country. Also recall the Madagaskar idea?

    To end up with the Holocaust idea you needed to perfect the system first, which was done by killing the German psychiatric cases and disabled in the late 1930´s. Also the method of finding the people in towns and forwarding them to the camps was practiced, and this took place in Poland 1939. The Einsatzcommandos were created. Also one important thing, the resistance of people was checked, that is how would people react to killing and sterilization of the disabled and psychiatric cases. The experiments could be continued. And most of all, the thing I fear here most, is that the doctors did not refuse to do these tests. Actually I fear the fact is that the the nazis did not invent this, the doctors did.....As a doctor myself I fear this is the real truth because all this racial system and methods to kill were developed by...doctors. The top nazis accepted these methods and in Wannsee 1942 the "big wheels" were set to motion.

    Personally I see that the idea was there early on but it was not possible until the methods were there and tested, and also the huge number of Jews from Barbarossa became a problem, that this huge killing system was created as it also liberated food for those who needed it ( i.e. Aryans ). How much the start of war with the USA changed the outcome of Wannsee meeting, I cannot say. It has been postulated that holocaust was not possible as long as the US view meant something for German politics, but once the war was declared, the road to total killing was open. If I recall correctly the original date for Wannsee was early Dec 1941 but was changed to early 1942 due to the changed situation.

    Just a couple of my thoughts....
     
  8. rcaf_87

    rcaf_87 recruit

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    yea some nice points here especially the madagascar plan. But do you think the nazis ever made plans of extermination prior to 1939. I remember my professor telling me that nazis had a plan to make this giant ghetto in Russia but that never worked out. I know hitler had thought of extermination even before he came in control. After doing some research i'm pretty sure extermination was a result of the war and not a long term plan at all. Mass/forced migration yes, but extermintion, no.
     
  9. Za Rodinu

    Za Rodinu Aquila non capit muscas

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    I don't think that by eliminating what, 1-2 million Western European Jews the food problem in an universe of 100 million in Grossdeurschland would make much difference, besides I do not believe the nazi economy was so efficient to turn this theoretical release of foodstuffs into effect. Also it has to be considering that by killing that number there would be an equivalent production loss, so things would be balanced.

    The problem with the USA was, IIRC, that Jews were hostage to the USA good behaviour, or so it seemed to those distorted minds.
     

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