The main reason of why Nazis lost the War???

No, no I am not labeling you personally with any political groupings... All I am saying that in general 21st century outlook is a "liberal outlook"

All I am saying here that nothing Nazis or Hitler brought on the table that was new but they took it to extreme..

For example lebensraum was nothing new for German minds, Hitler's book mein kampf sold very poorly (because of its writing style and not contents) until he became dictator but a book on the similar topic "Volk ohne Raum" sold 700000 copies just before 1933.

And no I am not a German hater (If any one tries to come to that erroneous conclusion), if anything I will be classified as Germanophile who believes Germany has many things to be proud of rather than focusing on its military tradition only..

Of course as an idea it is as old as human kind itself otherwise we wouldn't have survived but I am not sure if its practice has been constant throughout the history.

 

Eugenetics,sterelization,euthanasia were no inventions from Hitler:they existed already before WWI,and,had staunch defenders as W.Churchil,G.B.Shaw,but,of course,Hitler took it to extreme .
Antisemitism was nothing new:it was world wide spread:from Britain (LGeorge)to the US,France,Russia(the progroms),but,of course,Hitler took it to extreme .
Racism was nothing new:it was world spread (and still is),but Hitler took it to extreme .

 

Well,you are optimistic,optimistically naive,or naively optimistic .Since WWII millions have been massacred,and,there is no reason to think it ever will stop .

 

That is so strange, LJAd, as nothing I said in anyway indicated that I was not aware of the atrocities committed against human beings, I even acknowledged that there are people who do not value human life (I just didn't expound on it because that was not the point of my conversation, Hitler's appeal was the point).

And it is laughable because as a mother whose son was killed by someone else's deliberate action I can tell you am neither optimistic or naive. I have personal and painful reason to know that some people place little value on human life and any optimism and naivete I may have possessed was buried along with my only child. Maybe you shouldn't make such assumptions.

And, fuser, our discussion centered on your assertion you would have followed Hitler because of his appeal, and I didn't agree that he would have been compelling enough to overlook the evil things he did. You then indicated it was because 21st century values wouldn't allow us to understand, and that many of Hitler's ideas were embraced by other people of the time and I felt you lumped his lack of concern for human life into that category, which I disagree with. And I believe that his disregard for other human beings would have negated his appeal. It would have for me, anyway. And that is what I've been trying express.

But we seem to be going around and around now, and there's no point in repeating ourselves. So I'll just agree to disagree with you here.

And back to the original point of the thread, a great many opinions expressed here and all have merit. Like any war, WWII was won and lost because of so many people, so many decisions, so many actions, but I think that Hitler's egomanical behavior might be the tipping point, it certainly affected decisions and actions that should have been taken and probably was the reason some actions were taken that should not have been.

 

I understand your position and indeed we can agree to disagree..

 

Well,I am sorry that I have hurt you,believe me unwillingly.
But,stil,I must disagree :we all have seen the pictures of millions who were idolizing Hitler,but,we all have seen the pictures of the weeping masses at the dead of Stalin,of the millions who believed that Mao was swimming across the Yellow River,of the millions idolizing Kim il Sun,Saddam,Khadaffi .
And,to those convinced it would not be possible in Europe,do I have to remember the pictures of the thousands of European students waving the Red Booklet of Mao ?
We are appeasing our conscience with the wishfull thinking:it never will happen again ,but ....the charisma of a revolutionary leader will make that a lot of people will overlook his crimes .

 

I read that one of the reason for Germany's downfall was Hitler's decision not to use chemical weapons: Tabun and Sarin. With those no one would dare make a land invasion anywhere in Europe; and it would have maybe prolonged the war sufficiently (1946-47) that a truce between the Allies and the Axis would materialize, for everyone was sick of the war.

 

And I believe that his disregard for other human beings would have negated his appeal. It would have for me,

Says it all...All the what would you do rubbish..You then as even today, either follow the mob or you dont follow the mob. Even in peaceful Britain at this time there are many not willing to follow the mob. And never will. Even if we are sometimes rubbished as smelly hippies, get a job, folk died for you...I've had em all shouted at me...I won't though ever follow the mob...I have a job, I'm not a hippy, and I served and got the wounds for it.

Well said Clemintine.

Never ever...follow the mob no matter the cost.

 

The allies had larger quantities of these chemical weapons and the capacity to make and deliver much more than Germany could. The allies had stocks of chemical munitions in Europe as they advanced just in case Hitler decided to use them as a last ditch defence.

Churchill contemplated and planned for their use in 1940 in case Sealion was launched.

 

I think that Hitler using the option of gas wouldn’t have been of much use in extending the war longer since Hitler had been informed that the "secret" of nerve agents wasn’t a secret by any stretch. Also, extending the war would have put the Germans back in the atomic bomb target. They were the original targets remember, and many of the scientists who worked on the bomb didn't want to use it against the Japanese since it was not clear they were anywhere near building one of their own. That was the big fear concerning the Nazis, that Hitler would get the bomb before the allies.


(Albert) Speer, who was strongly opposed to the introduction of tabun, flew Otto Ambros ,I.G. Farben’s authority on poison gas as well as synthetic rubber, to the meeting. Hitler asked Ambros, "What is the other side doing about poison gas?" Ambros explained that the enemy, because of its greater access to ethylene, probably had a greater capacity to produce mustard gas than Germany did. Hitler interrupted to explain that he was not referring to traditional poison gases: "I understand that the countries with petroleum are in a position to make more [mustard gas], but Germany has a special gas, tabun. In this we have a monopoly in Germany." He specifically wanted to know whether the enemy had access to such a gas and what it was doing in this area.

To Hitler's disappointment Ambros replied, "I have justified reasons to assume that tabun, too, is known abroad. I know that tabun was publicized as early as 1902, that Sarin was patented, and that these substances appeared in patents. (...) Ambros was informing Hitler of an extraordinary fact about one of Germany's most secret weapons. The essential nature of tabun and sarin had already been disclosed in the technical journals years before, and I.G. Farben had patented both products in 1937 and 1938. (emphasis mine)

[international patents required the formulation to be disclosed]

Ambros then warned Hitler that if Germany used tabun, it must face the possibility that the Allies could produce this gas in much larger quantities. Upon receiving this discouraging report, Hitler abruptly left the meeting. The nerve gases would not be used, although they would continue to be produced and tested. (The Crime and Punishment of I.G. Farben; Joseph Borkin)


(me again) It was after that meeting with Ambros that the proposed use of tabun against the Soviets was shelved. In one area Ambros was slightly wrong, the DuPont company had already begun production of tabun and according to their internal records had nearly 12,000 tons of the stuff in storage before the end of the war. The other nerve gases were Sarin and Soman, neither of which had been produced in any amount to speak of. Another thing to keep in mind is the expense of producing these gases, there was nearly a 100 to 1 ratio of resources in; product out. That meant that it took a hundred tons of material to produce one ton of the stuff.


Sarin was discovered in 1938 and is properly known as isopropyl methyl phosphoro-flouridate. Tabun is one of the easier chemical agents to make, and yet containment of the highly toxic hydrogen cyanide gas that is produced during the process is a technical challenge. Sarin was also found to be even more difficult to manufacture and was thus never mass produced by either the Allies nor the Axis. Only a pilot plant for sarin that had never gone into production existed when the war came to an end. And let’s not forget that tabun was isolated when I.G. Farben still had close ties and were sharing data with DuPont here in America.


I believe the DuPont family and the Thyssens held shares in each others companies, and Edsel Ford sat on the board of IG Farben America! Who knew what who knew?


Like mustard gas, all three nerve agents are oily liquids that take some time to dissipate and air temperature effects their dissipation rates, and all three can penetrate unprotected skin. However, Tabun is unstable and has a distinctive odor. In late 1938 the German researchers discovered Sarin, which is considerably more toxic than Tabun, it is more stable, and has almost no odor when purified. By spring of 1942 the Germans had put tabun into mass production and were working on production facilities for sarin. Production was limited by supplies of raw materials, such as phosphorus, which the Germans obtained from first the Soviets and then the phospate deposits in North Africa which they lost access to as well.


These sources became unavailable to the Germans as the result of both Operation BARBORSSA and Operation TORCH, and production fell far short of goals. Neither Sarin nor Soman were stockpiled in any quantities. Soman was only discovered in 1944 and was the third and last of the German nerve gases. Known to science as pinacolyl methyl phosphoro-flouridate, this gas was never taken beyond the laboratory production of a few pounds.


Under the Nazi ten years of control of production at IG Farben amounted to "only" about (estimated) 17,-25,000 tons of tabun were produced for Germany. The reason the total is vague is because the plant fell into Soviet hands and they were very reluctant to share that information with the west. That is neither here nor there as DuPont knew the "formula", and had vastly superior production abilities if called upon. Even though their (DuPont’s) internal records seem to indicate only 12,000 tons of the tabun agent were produced and stockpiled. The nerve agent sarin was developed while the two companies were "separated by war"; but chemists on both sides knew how good the others were.


They (Hitler and the Nazis) couldn’t risk that the DuPont chemists hadn’t already discovered/perfected sarin and with their massive production capabilities, also produced and stored sarin as well as tabun. And let’s not forget that the Nazis really only managed to manufacture several hundred pounds of sarin before the Allies ran them to ground and put the whole system to an end. Hitler was more or less positive the allies had retaliatory gas stockpiles, the Bari Italy bombing of '43 assured him he was correct. Now he couldn’t even be sure that the Soviets hadn’t also been receiving massive quantities of gas bombs and shells (of unknown content) in the Lend-Lease shipments; a large percentage of which made port or got into the USSR through Iran/Iraq and the Vladivistok port.


Even though he was becoming a liability to Germany’s war effort by 1944, perhaps when it got to that point he had no way of instigating the use of gases he had control of against his foes, and that was another hindering factor. He was "commanding" phantom divisions by that time in his bunker near the end as well. Couple the uncertainty of Hitler’s knowledge of Allied production with his own experience with gas in WW1, and its use against anyone is unlikely. And believe it or not, even though there was difficulty with an antidote, neutralizing Tabun, Sarin, and Soman, isn’t that difficult since they hydrolyze rapidly in strongly alkaline or chlorinated solutions. Decontamination procedures for skin, equipment and material include active neutralizing chemicals (chloramine solutions, 5% bleach) or neutral adsorbing powders (Fullers earth). And I believe the antidote for tabun and sarin is atropine.


During the desperate days of 1940, when Britain was facing a German invasion, Churchill had energetically built up an arsenal of gas weapons to greet German troops landing on England's shores (mustard and phosgene mostly). Even after the threat of invasion faded away, the British continued heavy production of chemical weapons. American war production included chemical weapons, in large quantities. In fact, even before the US formally entered the war, the Americans were discreetly shipping phosgene to the British.


Once war was formally declared, the US Army's CWS received massive new funding, reaching a billion dollars in 1942. Huge new production facilities were built, most notably at Pine Bluff Arsenal in Arkansas and the Rocky Mountain Arsenal near Denver, Colorado. The CWS also opened a huge test range in Utah, named the "Dugway Proving Ground", where there was plenty of space to test chemical and biological weapons on duplicates of German and Japanese buildings.


The US had signed but never ratified the Geneva Protocols, However President Roosevelt considered poison gas a barbarous weapon. He had no intention of authorizing its use, much to the disappointment of the CWS. The American chemical weapons program only thrived because of fear of Japanese CW efforts. Newspapers often printed reports of Japanese use of CW against the Chinese, and Roosevelt issued stiff public warnings that if that if any of the Axis nations used poison gas of any type on American troops, they could expect massive retaliation in kind.


Then there was the existing British "Operation Vegetarian", which had been in development since 1942, and was ready to go. It was held back because of the success of the Normandy landings. Britain had manufactured five million anthrax laced "cattle cakes" and planned to drop them on Germany in 1944. The aim of Churchill's "Operation Vegetarian" was to wipe out the German beef and dairy herds and then see the bacterium spread to the human population.


With people then having no access to antibiotics, this would have caused many thousands, perhaps even millions of German men, women and children to sicken and perhaps die. The anthrax cakes were tested on Gruinard Island, off Wester Ross, which was only finally cleared of contamination in 1990. "Operation Vegetarian" was planned for the summer of 1944 but it was abandoned as the Allies' Normandy invasion progressed successfully.


Details of the wartime secret operation are contained in a series of War Office files (WO 188) at the Public Record Office in Kew. Some of the files remain classified even yet. The man whose task was to carry out "Operation Vegetarian" was Dr. Paul Fildes, director of the biology department at Porton Down near Salisbury in Wiltshire. The British work on anthrax, or "N" as it was code-named, in the weapon form led (1943) to the design of an "N" bomb suitable for mass production by we Americans. Each particular set of munitions weighed 1.8 kilograms (4 pounds). 106 of these "bomblets" were to be packed into a 225 kilogram (500 pound) cluster-bomb canister and dropped over Nazi population and dairy production centers. There was a second delivery method which would have been even more effective. That was to separate the small "bomblets" out of the cluster bomb, and disperse them out of the flare tubes as the planes returned from normal bombing runs at night. This would insure wide distribution of the cakes, and save on time/weight, and possible discovery by the Nazis as an intentional attack.


The whole thing was protected by the highest level of secrecy; TOP SECRET:GUARD (which we Americans described jokingly as "DESTROY BEFORE READING"). An initial pilot batch of 5,000 "N bombs" was produced at Camp Dietrich in May 1944, and medium-scale production at a rate of about 50,000 bomblets a month followed. The bomblets were then turned over to the British, who stockpiled them. The plant at Vigo, Indiana, was designed for production of 500,000 anthrax bombs per month. The plant was never put into operation, partly because of extreme concerns over its safety to our own local populace, but also coupled with the success of the Normandy invasion a month later in June of 1944. By the end of the war, it had been converted into antibiotic production, though it could have easily been converted back to bio-weapons manufacture if the need had arisen.


So it would seem that the position of FDR of "not using them unless they were used against we allies" was the determining factor as per we Americans. If the British Isles had been in serious jeopardy of invasion, or if Operation Overlord was bogging down I don't doubt the Churchill and the British might have used the biological anthrax cakes. But neither of those circumstances came to pass, so they were never used in "grand scale" during the war, only tested on that single island.


I do find it slightly amazing that chemical weapons weren't used more extensively in WW2. The only ones to employ it were Italy (against Abysinnia and Hali Salasi) and Japan against the Chinese. Both of the recipients of these horrors were known to NOT have a stockpile of their own. So fear of retaliation was surely a deterrent.


And here is a link to a very short article on the subject which was posted online in the WW2 Magazine.


Goto:


Why No Poison Gas?

 

duplicate posts, don't know why?

 

I wish things were so simple that we could conclude down to a few factors the causes of WWII. However I am reminded that WWI was the war to "end all wars" so where did it all go wrong? It is more important in understanding the causes of war, that we realize that we are all human and with faults. It is our faults that bring us to war. It is not "bad" for us to realize that we have these faults and we must spend some time working on these things by honestly admitting them, as we can recognize them...... as we go along. What is unhealthy and maybe bad, is when we assume "our side" to be perfect and we continue down this path of delusion that will ultimately take us down some more negative path if not to war. It is my opinion that Hitler deluded himself first, then presented the same to his people who did not all buy it but soon there was a "cleansing" where those who did not think like the majority would have to leave or surrender to the Nazi points of view. So the country became enamored with his leadership and followed him in their evil pursuits. It took more than Hitler to accomplish this so there is more than one guilty party in all of this. There is no society on this earth that is immune to something like this happening from within and indeed we may have witnessed many instances of this yet not recognized it as such. I will say it may be less likely to happen in an open, thinking, and educated society where there is open examination of differing points of view but who would not argue that we also are tending to see more news organizations beginning to propagandize their chosen points of view which is an abandonment of open examination of the issues. I for one will recognize that Hitler and Germany were defeated but the type of thought processes that brought this all along is still with us in very strong form. I challenge the youth to learn to recognize the thought patterns that brought this all about. Only by doing that can our future be guarded against the repeat of the type of faulty blaming of a people and propaganda used to enable it, as was done in Europe and other parts of the world from time to time since.

 

On the gas in UK ww2 1940...I believe the oft quoted Churchill gas on the beaches statement was actually used by Allenbrooke not Churchill. Churchill may well have pinched it later though...I'll have to find my copy of Allenbrookes diaries.

 

That is certainly possible, Churchill never heard a "word picture" quote he liked that he didn't use himself. The most famous one I suppose is the "Iron Curtain" image of Communism, he pinched that one from Herr Goebbels.