Welcome to the WWII Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the community.

Was it possible for the Graf Spee to break out of Montevideo?

Discussion in 'Surface and Air Forces' started by mikebatzel, Mar 3, 2009.

  1. GermanTankEnthusiast

    GermanTankEnthusiast Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2009
    Messages:
    143
    Likes Received:
    1
    i believe they did the right thing by scuttling saved lots of lives, shame the captain was forced to commit suicide.
     
  2. Desb3rd

    Desb3rd Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2010
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    0
    So it looks like a long shout for poor GS.

    If some manner of negotiation gets under way & buys time for some of the more outlandish scenarios she'll have to face a CV & BC fleet; time for U-boats to arrive means more than enough time for RN ASW assets to arrive. GS, in best fettle & with all her ammo is slower & only possesses a fraction of the fighting power of (recently refurbished) Renown, which also has a superb shooting crew.
    I think we can dismiss the pipe dream of a breakout in the face of Swordfish or 15" shells...

    In the short term there is a chance, but a fleeting one. The RN cruisers shadowing is going to be tricky to escape; the "lucky shot" at the extremes of visual range is going to need a lot of luck, during the previous battle hit rates had been less than 2.5% at all ranges, even if this can be replicated at the 20,000+yds the shadowing forces would be positioned at this suggests at most another 7 hits, not enough to oblige breaking contact. In reality with damaged FC & extended range being an issue any hits can be considered a positive outcome for GS.
    Night gives the possible chance for escape. But where does GS run? Does it have the opportunity to refuel at sea with diesel, bunker - which an oiler will carry, will not do with the fuel processor out of action. If not the ship will be adrift in the mid-Atlantic fairly soon. Africa has been suggested, it's closer than we might imagine, but what's the hope of finding the right fuel grade even if you can find a friendly/neutral port. Considering the damage sustained & that Germany will be the only place such can be made good, GS has to go North, though it doesn't have the fuel, but anyway.
    Ok, I appear to have talked myself out of ever possibility, every scenario dead ends...

    Scuttling was a good decisions, Germany got 1000 sons & husbands (with good tans) out of the deal & in hindsight we know that whatever the propaganda value it wasn't a war changer.
     
  3. Volga Boatman

    Volga Boatman Dishonorably Discharged

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2009
    Messages:
    1,640
    Likes Received:
    154
    Whatever you believe, this thread has been just fascinating to read, all the way down from it's tentative 'what if' beginning, to Desb3rd's nice round off at post #62.
    All contributors to this thread should take a bow!

    Now heres my suggestion....

    Given that a breakout was impossible, if I were Langsdorff, I would have decommissioned her on the spot, torn off all the 'secret squirrel' devices, and sold her to the Uraguayan authourities as a floating tourist attraction, hotel, restuarant and bar. My crew would have been gainfully employed fitting out the vessel for it's new role, with the Uruguayan's making sure that all ammunition was removed, and the guns publically 'plugged', with pictures and champaigne all round.
    Spending the rest of the war as a floating money maker would have done more for the Reich propaganda wise than sinking all the merchantman in the area. Langsdorff would still be alive, and probably become "Time" magazine's 'Businessman of the Year', a much better fate for him personally than a cold hotel room and a cerebral bullet....
     
  4. Tomcat

    Tomcat The One From Down Under

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2008
    Messages:
    4,048
    Likes Received:
    267
    And then the British Buy it after that and they win an even greater propaganda battle against the Germans,:D
     
  5. Heinrich

    Heinrich Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2009
    Messages:
    460
    Likes Received:
    85
    What if ..Langsdorff already did the same this thread is trying to do on the spot , and already knew that no other support ships could have reached him before the ultimatum was finished wherein he was ordered to leave port , and he knew they couldnt make enough speed to outrun the waiting ships who were waiting just a few miles outside the harbour ..and as them being just a pocket ship knew he hadnt enough firepower to engage all three ships at the same time for attempting a succesfull breakout and knew more allied ships were coming for them too so he decided to sink it in the muddy harbour thus saving many lives that way on both party's and the allieds couldn't lift it afterwards , then whats the use of doing a what if on this one ? no way the Spee could have ever gotten away !
    Capt Langsdorff did the smartest thing he could in every way .
     
  6. lwd

    lwd Ace

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    12,322
    Likes Received:
    1,245
    Location:
    Michigan
    Not Langdorf's option but the German's should really have considered a repeat of the Goben and looked at selling/giving the GS to Argentina.
     
  7. scrounger

    scrounger Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2011
    Messages:
    165
    Likes Received:
    12
    Hi; This is a very interesting thread and everyone examined pratically every possible outcome . From what i've read I don't believe the damaged Graf Spee had much of a chance of successfully breaking out and defeating or eluding Allied forces and making it home. The pocket battleships were designed to interrupt the lenghty British supply lines not slug it out with the Royal Navy. Sort of like the well trained ,well equipped gang of bank robbers, they may overcome resistance to rob a bank but they are not going to slug it out with a S.W. A. T team. Besides from what I've read Hitler was no admiral !! on one hand he would see the Graf Spee go down in a hopeless battle guns blazing to the last sending 1000 men to a watery grave. And at practially the same time forbidding surface ship captains from combat with equal or superior Allied ships. No German Captain wanted to be paraded in front of the Feruer to explain why he got one of the nation's battleships damaged in battle with a British ship when he was ordered to sink merchantmen ... So when German battlecriusers would come upon a British convoy and see the tripod mast of an older British Battleship they would turn away instead of risking damage from a 15" shell. This left the German captain in an impossible position..
     
  8. CPL Punishment

    CPL Punishment Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2009
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    44
    Well, the British weren't too sure. They went to considerable trouble to convince the Germans that there were battleships waiting for Admiral Graf Spee when in fact there were just three ships in a position to intercept her: two six-inch light cruisers (Ajax and Achilles) and one eight-incher (Cumberland), basically the same type of force that had fought a few days earlier in the Battle of the River Plate. Langsdorff's original error which led to Admiral Graf Spee taking damage to her fuel system was in mistaking Admiral Harwood's force for a group of destroyers. Langsdorff rather foolishly closed the range and took hits he need not have sustained if he used the reach of his 11-inch guns intelligently. Of course this advantage would only be available on the open sea, coming out of Uruguayan waters Langsdorff wouldn't have been legally able to fire until in international waters, at which point he would be within range of all the British guns. Yet 280mm hits were extremely effective on those County-class cruisers. Exeter took seven hits and was completely out of the fight, only by the protection of smoke laid by Ajax and Achilles was she able to retire and survive.

    One possibility was for Langdorff to maneuver across the mouth of the River Plate into Argentine waters, and then exit to the sea well south of the British cruisers. This wasn't attempted for two reasons: 1) The mouth of the Plate has shoal waters which might prove unnavigable to Graf Spee at anything less than full high tide. Waiting for that tide entailed a risk of internment. 2) Langdorff was convinced a large force awaited him so a dash southwards would not be of much help, as it was if Langsdorff had managed to get through the shoals he might just have eluded Harwood, or even taken him on from the seaward side where the long range of his 11-inchers could have been used.
     
    Gromit801 and mikebatzel like this.
  9. lwd

    lwd Ace

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    12,322
    Likes Received:
    1,245
    Location:
    Michigan
    That's a matter of conjecture and I submit it is not well supported. He needed to shake off the persuit or he was likely to find himself in a battle with even stronger forces. If he attempts to do so at long range he's going to burn a lot of ammo. Historically he used a significant amount of what he had on hand. If the British are having problems closing then they can salvo chase and lay smoke even further decreasing the probability of getting hit at long range. They can then close at night for both gun and torpedo attacks or shadow until more British ships show up. At that point in time Graf Spee couldn't outrun any of the British cruisers.
     
  10. freebird

    freebird Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2007
    Messages:
    690
    Likes Received:
    55
    There is another consideration....

    GS has fired off most of her 11" ammo, but hasn't managed to sink any British cruisers - and more are coming.
    When the 11" ammo runs out, there is a risk that the ship could be captured.
     
  11. Tiornu

    Tiornu Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2004
    Messages:
    928
    Likes Received:
    23
    I'm trying to imagine a way in which the ship might get captured, but I can't do it. I don't think it was a practical option.
     
  12. TiredOldSoldier

    TiredOldSoldier Ace

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,223
    Likes Received:
    452
    AFAIK no large warship (above destroyer size) was captured in a naval action in WW2, on the other hand a lot were scuttled with outside help, mostly torpedoes, which points to a lack of a reliable means of doing so with only the ship's resurces.
    My guess is that once they gave up the attempt to save the ship there was no way to execute the scuttling procedure without endangering the crew so action from outside was needed to sink the abandoned wreck. On the other hand the chances of the crew surving GS is low, warhips didn't historically pick up survivors of sunk enemy warships very often and there were no German hospital ships in the area (the only ship type that could do rescue without risking capture).
     
  13. Tiornu

    Tiornu Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2004
    Messages:
    928
    Likes Received:
    23
    Off the top of my head, the only sizable surface warship captured at sea in WWII was USS Hornet, if we can indeed say she was captured.
     
  14. TiredOldSoldier

    TiredOldSoldier Ace

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,223
    Likes Received:
    452
    I believe the immobilized Italian cruiser Pola was boarded a Matapan as well, the accounts of that episode I have are pretty mixed though.
     
  15. freebird

    freebird Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2007
    Messages:
    690
    Likes Received:
    55
    From what I've read the Pola was captured by the Royal Navy at Matapan.

     
  16. TiredOldSoldier

    TiredOldSoldier Ace

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2008
    Messages:
    3,223
    Likes Received:
    452
    AFAIK the commander of Pola interrupted scuttling operations when it looked like the ship hadn't been spotted by the British destroyers, the battleships had already left the immediate area, and resumed them at the time of the boarding.
    I found no mention of a towing attempted or planned, according to the accounts I read the ship's wounded were moved to HMS Jervis by means of a gangplank which, given the realtive sizes of the ships, suggests the ship was pretty low in the water at the time of the boarding though she was on an even keel.
     
  17. Tiornu

    Tiornu Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2004
    Messages:
    928
    Likes Received:
    23
    I forgot all about Pola. Yes, she was so flooded that her decks were nearly at sea level. She was like Hornet in that she was beyond saving at that point.
     
  18. SymphonicPoet

    SymphonicPoet Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2009
    Messages:
    701
    Likes Received:
    130
    Even if it wasn't terribly practical, all the major navies were worried about it. Akagi, Soryu, and Lexington were all scuttled to prevent capture. The US Navy attempted to scuttle Hornet and the IJN might well have tried to take her if she hadn't been so far gone. (They considered it, at least.) It's been argued that Bismark was scuttled, though that's still quite contentious.

    While it never happened, I can certainly see how it could have. If Japan hadn't scuttled Akagai I can't see what would have prevented the US from taking her and towing her back to Pearl where she would have provided good intel, if nothing else. And she might even have been salvageable. (Which leads me to wonder what Akagi might have looked like after US refit. Doubt we'd have used her for a CV, but we probably could have found a use for a hull that size. On the other hand, flight decks were in short supply in the USN in 1942. Maybe a Lexington sized Enterprise?)
     
  19. Tiornu

    Tiornu Member

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2004
    Messages:
    928
    Likes Received:
    23
    That assumes the original crew abandons the ship in a salvageable condition and just lets it go (or in Hornet's case, someone does a hilarious job of trying to scuttle). The fact that it didn't happen makes a strong argument about impracticality.
     
  20. freebird

    freebird Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2007
    Messages:
    690
    Likes Received:
    55
    Although it doesn't seem that they were very successful, if the RN destroyers felt they had to torpedo her?

    Unless of course they are near land, in which case they can be beached.
    The Germans scuttled Baden after WWI, but the British managed to beach her before she sank
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS_Baden_(1915)
     

Share This Page