Understanding Prussia and European Militarism that lead to the World Wars

I personally know little about Prussia, but I have always wondered if understanding this aspect of history to be vital precursor to understanding the militaristic European mind that was very characteristic of the WW1 French, German, and British Powers. I can only wonder if Prussian culture was a significant foundation for some of those Nazi values.

I found this new release that seems to have significant value:

Iron Kingdom: The Rise and Downfall of Prussia, 1600-1947 (Paperback)

Amazon.com: Iron Kingdom: The Rise and Downfall of Prussia, 1600-1947: Christopher Clark: Books

 

For sure,the whole german concept of what it was to be a soldier was prussian,to do one duty and die for you country etc.

Thing is hitler was a lefty but a lot of the high command was thought in the prussian officer tradition,this tradition taught that lower officers were perfectly entitled,indeed it was their duty to question orders and plans from higher officers.

Of course what happaned towords the end of the war is that hitler started to take more and more control,he got rid of the prussians and brought in more yes men.

 

It is one important part of the military history, yes, but to say that the Prussians or Germans were the only ones ever "guilty of starting wars" because of their military background or such... I´d say not very true. There were other important matters,too, and understading also the military history of Britain and France and Russia is important as well. But looks like a fine book to me and worth reading.

Reading about Hitler´s leading system it definitely looks like the old "divide et impera" that even Caesar used with good results. Hitler gave almost always the same job to two or more people/parties and thus kept them competing each other instead of making plans against the dictator himself...A huge waste of energy but a great way to keep the people fighting each other instead of Hitler himself.

Divide and rule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

In mein kempf hitler made a very good point against democracy,he stated that democracy was flawed because the best and most capable man didnt always get the job,that the average voter was dumb and voted for who they most liked the look of,,and that a good man in office could be replaced by an idiot because of voter whim.

 

The Soviet Union had a very large pool of excellent scientific and engineering human capital but their poor centrally planned communist organization that violated countless principals in economic practicality/philosophy failed to give them the material, flexibility,and the means to achieve their potential.

I tend to not believe radical claims about effectiveness or ineffectiveness of economic and social policies without being shown high quality empirical evidence and concrete physical proof. This is much more possible in the 21st century due to technical advances and great expansions in government and private sector data gathering/analytical services. Data transparency has increased dramatically thanks to computing and there are often enough sets of data to compare and contrast (and interrogate/question the validity, quality) on how these results were obtained.

From what I've seen, a key part of Nazism was reliant on radical claims that were supported by supposedly logical analysis. But these were reliant on the acceptance of ultra generalizations, a lack of any sense of proportion, and completely fake situations. (ie. Jew Finance Capital, International Jewry, etc.). In the 20s, 30s, and 40s, data transparency and availability was just exceptionally poor. So poor that political philosophies that never should have survived (ie. Nazism, Communism, etc.) did.

 

In view of who the Germans voted for ( himself ) perhaps Hitler had a point, after all they did look quite handsome in those uniforms ( if you like that sort of thing).
I admit I have never read Mien Kemf from cover to cover. In my early years I tried but found Mao's Little red Book a far more entertaining load of rubbish.
Wolfy , I reckon the computer would have been a godsend to the Nazis. They say you can prove anything with statistics, its just how they are presented. Can you imagine the computer records for the death camps? Blood chilling.

The Prussian state was the main driver for the formation, from lots of small states, of what we now know as Germany and was the dominant political force until the end of WW1. Prussian military ideals hung on in the officer corp which probably held the Germany Army together during the chaotic 1920's and lead to their unquestioning loyalty to Hitler as Head of State and personal oath given by them to him.

I believe the British Army in the early 1900s was remodelled on the Prussian Army at Staff level. British Officers were regular guests at Prussian Army manoeuvres

 

you bought the book? could you give a short review on it?

 

I don't think the 'Prussian Legacy' had much to do with political ideals. Rather, it had a greater effect on the Military and the way the Military was run.

Kaisier Wilhelm II was hugely swayed by the Prussian Military Mindset and went to great lengths to 'unify' the German Army under one uniform. At the time, each group of Soldiers, who would be mustered in their various provinces, all had their own different uniforms. Kaiser Wilhelm II could often be seen wearing his military uniform and was a stickler for pristine uniforms etc. Under his reign, Germany began to adopt the neat, very precise uniforms that we see them in during WWI and WWII.

The German WWII Unifroms, the German attention to detail, their parades, etc, can all be pointed towards this 'Prussian Legacy' - order, chain of command, etc, all of it influenced by the Prussians.

I think, overall, that the Prussians had nothing to do with the creation of the Nazi mindset, and should not be associated with the Nazi mindset, but I do believe it had a huge influence on the command structure, the discipline, uniforms, etc of Germany. This probably enabled the Nazis to carry out mass executions etc with no backlash from its own soldiers due to doctrines that had been drilled into them from the get-go.

 

I was under the impression of other then preventing them from leaving the country, they were provided with virtually all of which they needed for work.

What countless of violations in principals of economic practicality/philosophical failures are you referring to?

 

I really can't believe that I am seeing this!!

What the hell does Prussian culture have to do with Nazi values???

Unbelievable

Kruska

 

Lots. Lack of information transparency, central command displaced from local tactical realities, foregoing the advantages of specialization, severe lack of incentives to promote efficiency, flagrant waste (often greatly overproducing, overallocating human and material resources for tasks), a general lack of institutional business education and subsequent organizational skills, etc.etc.

Russian economic organization was extremely wasteful of human resources, raw materials, and industrial equipment. Their productive output in nearly every field per unit of input was much lower than that in the United States.

Instead of yelling in my thread, you could supply an answer.

 

Fu.... NONE

Kruska

 

Wolfy, a rather ironic response, coming from you, but I do think Kruska's 'Yelling' was an answer (and ties into my above response too) - the shared belief that the Prussians had no influence/nothing to do with the Nazi Ideology.

 

But your own answer did insinuate that Prussian elements were evident in Nazi culture ((not just military)-as in parades, uniforms, fanatical obedience, etc.).

 

Wolfy
Uniforms and coreography have little to with culture or values, Italian fascism borrowed plenty of simbols from ancient Rome (including the fasci from which it took it's name) but had very little in common with the Roman culture far less values. A similar thing applies to Nazis and Prussia.

 

Hello T.O.S,

you just took away my response

Regards
Kruska

 

Exactly...the Prussian Elements in the military etc that I mentioned existed in World War I and prior to any group of Nazis taking control of Germany. The Prussian Legacy existed, whether or not the Nazis were in power, but it had nothing to do with the Nazi Ideology etc.

 

This question was inspired by coming across this book and this newsreel:

YouTube - Die Deutsche Wochenschau vom 14.12.1944

It is clear that von Mackensen was used in this newsreel to appeal to certain nostalgic values. I was curious about the source.

August von Mackensen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Well with regards to mein kempf you are missing nothing,one of the worst grinds in my life,if it wasnt for the fact it was written by hitler i would have put it down after 5 pages.

I actually got my hands on the little red book when i was about 13 but only gave it a quick flick through,even then i thought it was a bit simplistic.
Got to say now that i know more i think it really does show up silly modern notions of intelligence.
A lot of people with polonecks and big words use "occulums razer" to sound clever and they give a big explanation,all i think is mao knew this 50years ago and wrote an entire book.
Cant help thinking the polonecks if they read the red book would knock it for being childish,go figure.

 

If I didnt know any better I'd say you were quoting a book......

I was looking more on the lines of actual examples.. Names of Scientists, what they worked on. What lack of incentives or flagrant waste of human and material resources are you referring too? What lack of business education or organization skill did Soviet Scientists fail to possess?

What agencies lacked transparency?

What time frame are you talking about?

What projects are you comparing too?