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Question on german wins and losses

Discussion in 'WWII General' started by macker33, Jul 16, 2009.

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  1. Wolfy

    Wolfy Ace

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    Was the 352nd Infantry division an elite unit? I thought it was a regular grenadier division with conscripts built around a veteran core.

    I was going to say Stalingrad, but then I thought of the Soviet counteroffensives and the Germans were indeed outnumbered overall.
     
    Wolfy, Jul 17, 2009
    #21
  2. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    You are right in your assumption, Wolfy.

    While the 352nd did have men who had fought on the Eastern Front, the majority of the men were teenagers, 17 & 18 years old. Of the 333 officers assigned, fully 50% were without any combat experience and the division was short about 30% of the needed NCOs. 1455 of division were Russian "volunteers". There had never been any battalion or regimental training. Of the 12,021 men of division, only 6800 were combat troops, detailed to defend a 53km front. The division had only been active for about 3 months, having been created in Feb or Mar of 1944.
     
    Slipdigit, Jul 17, 2009
    #22
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  3. redcoat

    redcoat Ace

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    Indeed.
    One of the most noteable aspects of German tactical warfare in the early period was their ability to mass overwelming force against an enemy at the point of their attacks, even when vastly outnumbered in terms of total numbers.
     
    redcoat, Jul 18, 2009
    #23
  4. macker33

    macker33 Member

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    I know the stuff about the 3:1 ratio isnt made up but that can be achieved locally by the smaller army although not in an area as small as leningrad,
    no doubt if the germans could have taken leningrad they would have.

    Ok,things seem to have gotten bent out of shape,back to the origional question without qualifiers.

    Were the germans ever defeated in a battle where they held the numerical advantege?
     
    macker33, Jul 18, 2009
    #24
  5. lwd

    lwd Ace

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    I believe some examples were given earlier in this thread.
     
    lwd, Jul 18, 2009
    #25
  6. macker33

    macker33 Member

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    Well that was the question anyway,i dont know why things got so hot and bothered.
     
    macker33, Jul 18, 2009
    #26
  7. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    lwd made a good observation.

    I gave you two examples.

    Here's another: Elsenborne Ridge

    This discussion is moving along quite well.
     
    Slipdigit, Jul 18, 2009
    #27
  8. SPGunner

    SPGunner Member

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    How about Kursk. Although the Germans did not have a numerical advantage in the entire area of operations, the Germans were able to concentrate enough forces for a numerical advantage at the point of attack, since many of the Russian forces were in the tip of the salient.
     
    SPGunner, Jul 18, 2009
    #28
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