pistols of ww2

The only pistol that has jammed on me was the 1911.

I almost picked up a P38 recently. There are plenty of surplus Walthers out there. Great pistol.

But I prefer the Luger

 

Lugers certainly feel very good in the hand; as near perfect as you'll find, but they are quirky & finnicky shooting. Don't use "tame" loads.

P-38's (or postwar P1's) are a good fun gun. They sometimes tend to throw the brass casings onto your forehead, though (straight back and over the top).

Just remember both were designed to function with FMJ's only. If you want to shoot hollow points, stick w/a more modern design.

 

P-38 was more accurate and durable than the Luger, in spite of its unpopularity with trophy hunters. P-38, M1991 and Browning HP were the real good guns of that war, some spawned modernized progenies and some are still soldiering on, in more or less original form.

 

Best overall probably the 9mm Browning High power like you say. The Colt fired the powerful 45 ACP round but only held 8 rounds maximum. Also it was single action for the first shot, it had to be cocked with the thumb or the slide pulled back to fire. Having to take the time to do either was a severe drawbacks in combat. With the high power you could carry it loacked and loaded, take off the safety and pull the trigger.

The only drawback to the high power was the magazine safety built-in. That is, if the magazine were removed, the gun would not shoot. So in a desperate situation, with your magazine lost or damaged, the pistol could not be used as a sigle shot. Some models of the high power had this feature disabled however.

The high-power is unique in that it was the only first-line handgun manafcatured and used by both sides during the European war (the Germans made their on captured Belgian equipment at the FN factory, they simpy continued production.)

 

Come on guys, the Hi-Power was just like the 1911, both needed to have the hammer cocked by the thumb for the first shot. They are/were both single actions during WW2. And both could be carried "lock and loaded" with one in the pipe, on safe.

 

The 7.62x25 round is very underestimated. This round can penetrate body armour. I have both the Colt 1911 and the Tokarov. I am very partial to the Colt 1911 and would choose this pistol for combat, however, when I bring the Tokarov to the range, it sounds like a hand cannon going off and it turns heads. That would be my second choice.

MIke

 

For actual combat, either the 1911 or the Tokarev. I'd rather use a knife than a 9mm, it's more effective, lol. 45 ACP for the win!

 

dude the berreta M9 or 92f didn't come out till after vietnam in 1975

 

I'm sorry if this is an old thread, but the topic still interests me.

If I were in an actual combat situation, I would prefer to use either the Colt M1911 or the Walther P38. Both guns are, to me at least, supposed to be the better handguns of World War II. I have only had personal real-life experience with a Colt M1911, though. I do want to save up for a nice Walther P38 someday though, maybe as a personal protective weapon for home defense.

 

My choice would be first, 1911A1, second Vis35, Inglis HP35 third. I've found reliabilty and accuracy better in those three. My P08 is pretty but jams regularly on anything over 124 gr FMJ. My P38 is reliable but accuracy is not all that great. Anybody shoot the astra 400 or 600 pistols? Mine shoot well but racking the slide against the strong recoil spring gets a little old.

 

i'd go with the 1911

 

I'll take the FN Hi-power P35, 14 rounds counting the one in the chamber. I also like the accuracy and penetration of the 9x19mm Parabellum. Stopping power is of no concern as it's a moot point for a pistol as no pistol will stop a man dead in his tracks with sheer force alone anyway. Sorry but people don't skid along the floor when hit by a .45 ACP in reality, unlike what they do in movies. In reality its about how quickly you incapacitate your target, not about knock down power (which a pistol round packs little of regardless), and the placement of the rounds matters over all else in this respect. So the 9mm Para is the round of choice for me here. If it's good enough to be the favorite of virtually all spec ops units worldwide, the FBI and most Police, then it's good enough for me.

 

Everyone has their favorite pistol, and reasons for liking (loving) their choice.

The "stopping power" of the .45 was decided in 1904. And due to the kinetic energy delivered, the .45 round is a proven man stopper. The Army moved to the .45 caliber bullet after the abject failure of the .38 Long Colt to stop the drug crazed Moro tribesmen in the Philippines. Add in that the .38 Long Colt definitely didn't even have the measured power of the .38 Special designed the same year as the marginally more efficient 9X19 Luger Parabellum (1902).

All of which were tested by the US Army in 1904, the man who pushed the Army into adopting the .45 caliber cartridge was Gen. John T. Thompson, later the father of the Thompson submachine gun (also in .45) and a member of the Army Ordnance Board during the time that the M1911 pistol was being developed by John Browning, to be produced by Colt. After the disastrous showing of the Army's .38 Long Colt pistols in the Philippines, Gen. Thompson was committed to the idea that the Army should be packing a real man-stopper in its handguns, i.e. a big .45 caliber bullet.

It was the cartridge tests conducted by Thompson and Major Louis Anatole LaGarde of the Medical Corps in 1904 at the Nelson Morris Company Union Stockyards in Chicago that resulted in the adoption of the .45 caliber as the official U.S. Army handgun cartridge. They tested various calibers on live cattle and horses (.32 ACP, 9mm Parabellum, .38 Special). And even fired into human cadavers to determine the best load and bullet weight. It was discovered by these "cavalry oriented" professionals that a 210 grain .45 traveling at 840 fps could drop a horse with a "chest shot", none of the lower calibers could do so no matter the speed of the projectile. If a man could "drop" a horse with his pistol, it was assumed by these cavalry men that this would be the weapon of the future. Sure couldn’t hold these kinds of "real life" tests today could ya? The PETA people would go into "vapor lock"! From these multiple weeks of tests it was determined that the .45 with at least 210 grain weight of projectile was the most effective cartridge for the new handgun in FMJ construction. In their report, they state:

"...the Board was of the opinion that a bullet, which will have the shock effect and stopping effect at short ranges necessary for a military pistol or revolver, should have a caliber not less than .45". In response to the Ordnance Board's specification, Browning, working with Colt, re-designed his pre-existing .32/.38 autoloading pistol to fire the .45 ACP. Browning's first loading was a 200 grain bullet running at 900 feet per second, but the Army wanted a larger bullet (see above), even if it was slower. So Browning responded with the loading we have today, a 230 grain bullet with a muzzle velocity of 830 fps.

Both the .38 Special and the 9mm Parabellum were better than the old .38 Long Colt, but both still proved to be less "powerful" against any adversary than the .45. This was determined by firing at live animals with the various rounds at the same distances for each load.

Here is a portion of an interesting report (Philip B. Sharpe review of the M1928A1 Thompson from 1929 [Page 1107]) concerning the .45 ACP:

"This .45 automatic pistol cartridge, in the arm designed for it, delivers about 830 foot per seconds velocity. In the 10 1/2-inch barreled Thompson it delivers about 925 f.p.s. Tests indicate that accuracy and penetration is quite respectable, even at the longer ranges. A single shot two feet from the muzzle, using the 230 grain bullet, tested on 3/4-inch yellow pine boards spaced one inch apart, ran through 6 3/4 boards. At 100 yards it would plough (sic) through six boards; at 200 yards through 5 1/4; at 300 yards, 4 1/2; at the 400 mark through four boards, and at 500 yards it could still stumble through 3 3/4 boards, sufficient to cause very unpleasant sensations in the body of a recipient."

This link from the late David Hackworth (USMC) might be of interest as per multiple shot 9mm rounds in combat conditions since it contains:

The Beretta can only be used bone-dry. Even then, it jams repeatedly if sand or grit gets into moving parts. Its ball round has proven to be worse than the .38 Colt pistol slug used by the U.S. Army in the Philippines until it was retired almost a century ago in favor of the .45 ACP M-1911 pistol – fielded to stop the Moros, who ironically were also Islamic fanatics.

Now Special Forces and Light Infantry soldiers in Afghanistan want to bring back the century-old .45, and some elite Marine units already have. A Special Forces sergeant says, "The large-caliber, slow-moving .45 bullet puts the bad guys on the ground. Lighter stuff like the Beretta's 9 mm will, too – eventually – but on the battlefield you almost always have to double tap, and in close combat a gunfighter hasn't the time or the ammo to lose firing two rounds."


Goto:

Toss the 9mm, bring back the Colt .45!

 

I've talked to US vets who had the opportunity to fire the M1911 pistol starting w/ those who served in WWII & going up to the time of its replacement w/ the M9. In all but one or two cases they said the same thing about the .45; they couldn't reliably hit anything w/ it. These were men who were competent w/ the service rifle they were issued; the Garand, .30 Carbine, M14 or M16. The WWII ETO vets also commented on the accuracy they felt the German 9mm’s had over the M1911.
Don’t get me wrong… I love the pistol & the .45 round. I’ve shot competitively & seen what others have been able to do w/ match grade 1911’s & practice. I do think that the .45 can be mastered by anyone who could qualify w/ the service rifle but it in many cases would require more practice & determination than the military has time for.
One hit by a .45 is better than one by a 9 but a hit by a 9mm will be more effective than any number of misses w/ a .45. A report on police shootings which gathered statistics over a number of years concluded that the .45 ACP & 9mm Luger are about tied for ability to incapacitate an assailant. The report was written by a former police officer named Evan Marshall. I have seen the report panned by internet experts whose chief argument is that they don’t like the conclusion but it is any interesting read.
A poster mentioned that the 9mm was adopted by the US solely for the sake of NATO commonality. The US had forced the rest of NATO to adopt the 7.62 NATO round over a number of .280 rounds which were being developed in the late 1940’s thru the 50’s & there probably was pressure from NATO members for the US to be the one to budge on the issue of handgun caliber. That being said there is more to the story than NATO commonality.
The last large scale purchase of M1911/1911A1 pistols made by the US was for WWII. By the 1980’s the remaining pistols were in need of replacement. A push was made to adopt not only a new pistol but a design which would replace the variety of pistols & revolvers in the US arsenal. At that time the USAF was issuing 2” barreled revolvers in .38 Special for aircrews & 4” barreled .38 Specials for Air Police. The Navy was issuing the 2” aircrew revolver & the M1911. I would have to guess that the situation was similar for the Army & Marine Corp. That makes for a lot of different models to train gunsmiths on, stock parts for, & purchase ammunition for. Logistically it makes sense to use a “one size fits all” approach but the down side is you’re not getting the best solution to a particular problem.
Anyhow… back to the original question;
1st choice Browning HP
2nd choice Colt M1911
3rd choice tied P38 & Radom
Last place any of the Japanese pistols

 

I would rather have a m1917 38 peace maker more reliable in most combat situations

 

As an interesting diversion which might take some of the individual or even "ethnocentric" preferences out of the equation, and simply compare rounds to rounds might I suggest this?

The Hatcher formula. While some of the handgun calibers listed below didn’t exist when Gen. Hatcher came up with his formula for estimating "stopping power", the formula can still be used for the newer rounds, since it is a formula which can be cross-checked by actual test firings.

See:

Miscellaneous Questions

His formula has withstood the test of time and validation from other studies and data related to estimating relative stopping power (RSP), by "wound" examination in ballistic gel.

A handgun cartridge that has a Hatcher value of over 50 generally has the most effective stopping power. Values over 55 have diminishing returns in that you don’t gain any significant increase in stopping power for the extra recoil and control you must cope with. Handgun cartridges that don’t make a value of nearly 50, should not considered for truly effective self-defense rounds.

If the rating of a handgun cartridge is under 30, it only has about a 30% chance of producing a one shot stop. Hatcher Ratings of 30 to 49 raise a one shot stop to approximately a 50% chance. Ratings of 50 or higher produce a one shot stop about 90% of the time. Not EVERY time, but most of the time.

Handgun Cartridge Type …………………………….... Hatcher Rating

.45 ACP full metal jacket 230 grain .......………………………. 49.1
.45 ACP jacketed hollow point 230 grain .…………………..... 60.7
.44 Magnum full metal jacket 240 grain ....……………………. 92.3
*.44 Magnum lead wad cutter 240 grain …………….……..... 136.8
.44 Special full metal jacket 240 grain ....……………………… 51.6
*.44 Special lead wad cutter 240 grain .....…………………...... 76.5
.41 Magnum full metal jacket 230 grain ....…………………......... 54
*.41 Magnum lead wad cutter 230 grain ..…………...……........... 80
10 millimeter full metal jacket 180 grain ......………………….... 50.3
10 millimeter jacketed hollow point 180 grain …………………...62.1
.40 S&W full metal jacket flat nose 180 grain ………………....... 53.4
.40 S&W jacketed hollow point 180 grain ……………………...... 59.4
.38 Special full metal jacket 158 grain ....………………………… 26.7
*.38 Special lead wad cutter 158 grain ..……………………........ 39.7
**.357 Magnum full metal jacket 158 grain ...……………………. 32.7
**.357 Magnum lead wad cutter 158 grain ........……………….... 48.5
.357 SIG (automatic pistol) full metal jacket 147 grain ................ 36.6
.357 SIG (automatic pistol) jacketed hollow point 147 grain .…... 45.2
9 millimeter full metal jacket 147 grain ......……………………..... 32.3
9 millimeter jacketed hollow point 147 grain ………….………….. 39.9
.380 Auto jacketed hollow point 95 grain …………….…………... 18.3
.32 Auto jacketed hollow point 71 grain .……………….……….... 11.1
.25 Auto jacketed hollow point 50 grain ……………….………….... 3.7
.22 Long Rifle jacketed hollow point 40 grain ……………………... 4.2
Barrel lengths are generally the shortest available for the various rounds.

* Jacketed hollow points will have the same rating as wad cutter bullets if the bullet hollow tip is greater than 1/2 of the caliber of the bullet.

** .357 Magnum ratings are taken from a firearm with a 3 inch barrel. Longer barrels will raise the rating of the round.

Every proponent of every handgun and every round will either "pounce" on this and use it to validate their own choice, or denigerate a different round. That is neither here nor there.

This is an objective, not subjective formula. As mentioned before, placement of round is vital, but if good placement is coupled with good Hatcher numbers, the outcome is predictable in most (but not ALL) instances.

 

makes sense but the m1917 is the easiest to use maintain and can be made in a extremely deadly 45 acp.

 

FBI findings:

The two most effective energy dumping versions available for each round:

9mm 115 grain Winchester Ranger JHP +P+ at 1320 fps
Kenetic Energy: 610 Joules
Penetration (Bare Gelatin): 9.55"
Expansion (Bare Gelatin): 0.53"
Penetration (Clothed Gelatin): 10.15"
Expansion (Clothed Gelain): 0.65"

All energy expended after 9.55 to 10.15" of penetration.

.45 ACP 185 grain Remington JHP +P at 1046 fps
Kinetic Energy: 601 Joules
Penetration (Bare Gelatin): 10.10"
Expansion (Bare Gelatin): 0.87"
Penetration (Clothed Gelatin): 9.50"
Expansion (Clothed Gelain): 0.81"

All energy expended after 9.50 to 10.10" of penetration.

As can be seen from these tests the two rounds are extremely close when it comes to so called "knock down power".

But neither round will knock a guy off his feet however, no pistol round will, that is pure Hollywood myth. If a round was to make the guy it hit go flying across the floor then the guy firing the pistol would go flying the other direction at an equal speed. It just doesn't happen.

Newton's third law of motion: To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction

Think of that the next time you fire a pistol, the knock down power of the round you're firing is no worse than the recoil you feel when you fire the pistol. Hence why the incapacitation capability of a round is what matter, and accuracy is a huge part of that, hence why the 9x19mm Parabellum is so popular!

 

What exactly are you talking about - doesn't make sense to me.

You seem to be contradicting yourself.

Regards

Richie