Hitler invaded Ireland?

So what? We both know that a real limie sailor would have finished those Martians early enough to be back to 5 'o clock tea time.

And may it just by sneezing at them, infecting them with a immediate lethal influenza.

Cheers,

[ 26. January 2003, 11:28 AM: Message edited by: AndyW ]

 

Correcton Andy, its Limey and he would have finished them off by Tiffin time.

Whats a death ray when compared to Jack Tar with his rum ration inside him?

 

I don´think the Germans could have got over the channel, the Royal Navy would have nailed them.And like we´ve seen even for a major army that has practiced invasion the Overlord was not an easy cake piece to eat.Just ask the boys on Omaha beach if it felt like that? So nothing better for the Germans ahead as well the air supremacy was not going to be theirs.( Unlike Normandy )

Some things that I think must be remembered:

1. If the Germans had attacked with their troops the whole expedition army would have been caught and things would have looked quite different. Maybe even that bad as to Churchill having to leave his post? Anyway, all the vehicles and heavy weaponry was left behind and the troops´s morale must have been affected by the narrow escape. Maybe someone has data on this-their morale?

2.For curiosity: Why did they not save more French?

http://www.battleofbritain.net/section-2/page-5a.html

May 31st 1940, and Prime Minister Churchill arrived in Paris for a meeting with the Allied Supreme War Council. Marshal Petain was there, so was General Weygand as was the Allied General Dill. At the meeting, Churchill explained the success of Dunkirk, and informed the meeting that so far, 165,000 men had been lifted out of Dunkirk. General Weygand then asked "But how many French?" Churchill new that the answer would be an embarrassment, and cleverly turned the conversation around. They discussed the Norwegian situation, and the demise in Holland and Belgium, but the Dunkirk question lay unanswered, and Weygand brought the matter up again. Churchill explained that out of the 165,000 evacuated, only 15,000 were French, and tried to explain that the majority of the rear guard troops and were already in or close to Dunkirk, the French were far widely scattered and had farther to come, but as they get closer to Dunkirk, we shall evacuate them also.

Reynaud interrupted. "The facts are," he stated, "that out of the British 220,000 troops, 150,000 of them have been rescued, of the 200,000 French, only 15,000 have been saved."

Were the French sacrificed??


On June 1st 1940, 64,429 Allied troops had been lifted from Dunkirk, miraculously 47,081 had been taken from the port of Dunkirk itself, and of these, 35,013 were French. At last, Churchill could present some figures to Paris without any embarrassment.


3. The Home Guard was formed with the intention of delaying an enemy invasion force for as long as possible and to give the Government and the regular army time to form a front line from which the enemy invasion could be repelled. When they were first formed, the Home Guard were expected to fight highly trained, well armed, German troops using nothing but shotguns, air rifles, old hunting rifles, museum pieces, bayonets, knives and pieces of gaspipe with knives or bayonets welded on the end.

http://www.schild.freeserve.co.uk/history.html

The Home Guard was eventually issued with more conventional weapons, but these had their problems. Most weapons were either World War One weapons or they were American or Canadian weapons. The British infantry rifle of WWI, the .303" SMLE was issued to the Home Guard. American P14 and P17 rifles were also supplied. The P14 and P17 looked almost identical, the only real difference being that the P14 took the SMLE .303" ammunition whilst the P17 took the American .30" (30-06) ammunition. To prevent accidents, the P17 had a red band painted on it to identify the 30-06 calibre.

I myself have all respect for people who defend their home country. Stalin found it out twice, as well. Bu the guns , I think, were even laughed at by the men themselves.

Weapons.


Initially the Home Guard was desperately short of weapons. The regular army had priority over the Home Guard due to the losses of equipment at Dunkirk. Even by September many units were virtually unarmed. Many units improvised by using shotguns, air rifles, old hunting rifles, museum pieces, bayonets, knives and pieces of gaspipe with knives or bayonets welded on the end. The most popular early improvised weapon was the molotov cocktail. This consisted of a bottle filled with petrol, with wick through a cork that was lit just before it was thrown. The bottle was intended to break igniting the contents. The weapons situation was improved by the delivery of a million old US rifles in mid July, although each had only 10 rounds a piece. 20,000 revolvers and shotguns were located as a result of an appeal

http://uk.geocities.com/pillboxesuk/homeguard.html

The Auxiliary Units.


Formed in 1940 these were most secret units in the Home Guard. The Auxiliary Units were men recruited from Home Guard units to form "stay behind" guerilla units if part of the UK was occupied. There were three battalions, numbered 201 (Scotland and Northern Counties), 202 (Midlands) and 203 (London and Southern Counties). These men were not actually on the the Home Guard roster. This was purely a cover and as they were not enrolled, they were not strictly covered by the Geneva Convention. Their uniform may have given them some protection against being shot out of hand if captured

By 1941 the threat on invasion looked less urgent. The Home Guard had recieved some more conventional weapons including sub-machine guns. The Home Guard also had some unique special weapons such as the Northover Projector which looked like a drainpipe on legs that was designed to fire grenades. Another was the Sticky Bomb, a grenade with a adhesive coating. One of the most lasting remains are spigot mortar emplacements.The Spigot mortar was a cheap anti-tank weapon that fired a 20lb high explosive mortar bomb.

4. Ireland :In Britain's hour of desperation in 1940, Churchill appeared to offer de Valera Irish unity, in return for Irish participation on the allied side in the war - and Dev turned it down.

By the end of 1940, Irish neutrality was very definitely out of fashion with the British but popular - James Dillon excepted - with Irish nationalists on both sides of the Border. While Winston Churchill accused the the 26 counties of "skulking" and a British newsreel warned that history might blame Eamon de Valera for helping Hitler "to fulfill the bloodbath of the New World Order", demonstrations in Dublin in support of neutrality provided conclusive proof that de Valera understood public opinion.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/special/1999/eyeon20/1940e.htm

if it had not been for the loyalty and friendship of Northern Ireland we should have been forced to come to close quarters with Mr de Valera or perish for ever from the earth. However, with a restraint and poise to which, I say, history will find few parallels, His Majesty's Government never laid a violent hand upon them though at times it would have been quite easy and quite natural, and we left the de Valera Government to frolic with the Germans and later with the Japanese representatives to their hearts content.

Churchill's War Time Speeches.
"Forward, Till the Whole Task is Done"
BBC London
13th May 1945.

http://www.churchill-society-london.org.uk/13May45.html

The aftermath of the Blitz in Belfast © On the evening of Easter Tuesday, 15 April 1941, 180 German bombers attacked Belfast and continued for several hours, dropping a total of 203 metric tons of bombs and 800 firebomb canisters on the city. All contact with a squadron of Hurricanes was lost and the Luftwaffe did not sustain a single loss. At the height of the raid a message was sent to de Valera by railway telegraph to send help. He agreed immediately and fire engines sped northwards. About a thousand people were killed. No city, save London, suffered more loss of life in one night's raid on the United Kingdom.

The Germans returned on the night of 4-5 May and inflicted devastating damage on the city's industries, but the loss of life was less than before since so many citizens had fled to the countryside. Sir Wilfred Spender estimated that 100,000 people had left the city before the second raid, and this figure rose to 220,000 by the end of May 1941. A month later Hitler began his invasion of Russia along a 900-mile front, and the Germans did not return to Northern Ireland. Because of its geographical position, Northern Ireland played a crucial role in the protection of convoys and Derry became the biggest anti-submarine base in the Atlantic.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/timelines/ni/belfast_blitz.shtml

In September 1939, the UK went to war with Germany when it invaded Poland ignoring British and French demands for it not to. Northern Ireland, as part of the UK, found itself at war too. Eire, being a small country with few military resources, immediately declared neutrality. The return of the naval ports had come just in time, since Eire would have had to oust the British to remain neutral. The Eire government looked with increasing anxiousness as Hitler invaded and took over 8 neutral European countries in 1940, since they knew that the Irish army wouldn't have a hope against the Germans in an invasion.

I think it was more interesting than real for German´s plans to invade Ireland but considering the Irish army at the time by the articles all operations of the kind seem dangerous, and the British would have to send their own men in order to make reasonable resistance, I think.

Despite the government's official line, however, the Irish people sympathised with the British and 40,000 Irish joined the British army and over 150,000 worked for the war effort. Nevertheless, the Irish declaration of neutrality brought resentment in Northern Ireland where times had got hard with rationing and blackouts while Eire could still trade freely.

How many knew that? I did not.

Again, Eire viewed its policy of neutrality with some artistic license. For example it permitted British and US planes to overfly county Donegal on their way to bases in Fermanagh and when British airmen crashed in Eire they were quietly escorted to the border, while German pilots were interned. All told, aside from the loss of life and property, the war was good for both Eire and Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland's flagging ship and cloth industries boomed. And a new industry, aircraft manufacture, was set up in Belfast which still exists today.

http://www.fortunecity.com/bally/sligo/93/past/history/19321945.html

Following De Valera's visit of condolence to the German Embassy following the death of Hitler, Ireland became, for the first time in the war, the subject of major stories in American newspapers.



http://www.irishstampsonline.com/SG%200529%20Eamonn%20De%20Valera.htm

----------------

One more thing:

Relax guys before you get a heart attack...

 

Kai yes your impression of the first few days of the official operation Dynamo are correct with regard to not taking great numbers of French off with the British.

There are even storys of some French troops being forced out of the loading areas at the point of a British officer pistol.

Churchill ordered that the French were then to be taken off in equal numbers to the British and in fact if someone doesnt get the figures up before I look, the Numbers of French taken off increased dramatically, I think the numbers came out eventually as half the figure of British.

The French commander of the town of Dunkirk, even went as far at one stage of insisting French troops be off loaded in as yet unoccupied France. At the height of the evacuation this was not plausable and the French were taken to England where many actually returned to France later to take part in the final battle for France.

Many also stayed in England with De Gaul, and a thired group returned later after the surrender of France.

Many French ships were sunk at Dunkirk also in their attempts to evacuate troops, we tend to think of Dunkirk as an all British opereation.

Numerous Dutch sloops and barges were used too I believe.

As and aside we know even after Dunkirk there were still British troops in France, the 51st Highland division had been south with the French in the Maginot line defences on roulement that the British had set up before the invasion of France.
Surrendering later at St. Valerey vaux?? Cant remember off hand. An evacuation was tried there too, but according to records of the Highland division once the French troops had surrendered even a spirited fight by dispersed units of the division proved impossible to get off the mainland.

Also little known but probably is to you guys, is that after Dunkirk, a second British Expiditionary force was sent to France under Alenborooke I believe...memory...in some numbers.

They were late taken off at St. Nazier of Hms Campbletown fame amongst other western ports.

One of the biggest losses of the war at that stage to the British was the loss of the Lancastria with the majority of its evacuated troops drowned. And not publicised to the general public for a long time as Churchill thought the effect on morale would be too damaging.

 

Thanx Urgh for the info and a tip..

I guess it was not Alan Brooke

After the retreat to Dunkirk, he was responsible for covering the evacuation (May 26-June 4, 1940) of the British Expeditionary Force. In July he took command of the home forces until promoted to chief of staff by Prime Minister Winston Churchill in December 1941. He held this post until 1946.

http://www.britannica.com/normandy/articles/Brooke_Alan_Francis.html

Some info on dates in 1940

4th June France: The last ship, the destroyer HMS Shikari, leaves Dunkirk at 3.40am

7th London: The first Victoria Cross of the war is awarded to Captain Bernard Warburton-Lee RN

8th Norway: King Haakon of Norway and the last of 24,500 Allied troops leave Harsted.

10th Rome: Italy declares war on Britain and France.

11th Malta: The island suffers its first air raid which kills 17 people and injures 130.

12th Italy: RAF bombers attack Milan and Genoa from airfields in Southern France

17th France: The White Star liner SS Lancastria is sunk after heavy air attack whilst evacuating troops at St Nazaire. Approximately 5000 men are lost.

19th France: British Line of Communications troops and two divisions of the 2nd BEF, a total of 150,000 men are evacuated through Cherbourg and the dock installations destroyed.

30th Guernsey: The Germans arrive at the residence of the Attorney-General, Major John Sherwill, who invites them to "Please use the side entrance", which they do!

Ok, anyone with more info especially on the second British expedition force, that would be interesting to hear!( evacuated on the 19th it seems ).

 

51ST Highland Division – Shameful debacle precipitated by Churchill’s obstinacy in pursuit of an idea of his and French PM Reynaud that despite the Dunkerque evacuation, a Brittany peninsula entrenched ‘bridgehead’ should be formed to act as a springboard for further operations, and, France must be encouraged to continue their fight, (or rather not provided with excuses not to). On 29th May General Marshall Cornwall was sent to oversee the interests of the 51st and the 1st Armoured. On 3rd June and repeatedly thereafter he strenuously requested evacuation and replacement with two new divisions with air support.

Initially there was no agreement on evacuation but consent for additional forces without air support. On 6th June a new Corps Command went out under Alan Brooke comprising the 52nd Lowland Div. and the 1st Canadian Div., arriving on the 12th and encamping at Le Mans. Between 8th to the 11th various degrees of consent to evacuation took place and by the latter date the 51st was hemmed in at the fishing port of St Valery without reserves of supplies, rations or ammunition. At 22:35 on the 11th the Admiralty at Portsmouth deciphered an priority message from the commander of the 51st (Gen. Fortune) advising that the night of 11th/12th was the last opportunity for evacuation as the Germans had taken the overlooking high ground making daytime evacuation impossible. Evacuees comprise 10’000 British and 5’000 French.

No ships came? Official records for Admiralty Portsmouth for the 11th and 12th are missing from the Public Records Office?

Ships started to arrive in the morning and were able to evacuate 2’137 British and 1’184 French from a beach north of St. Valery until the Germans positioned guns to fire on them. When Fortune was sure no further evacuation was possible, he ordered a cease-fire and surrendered to Rommel.

No.9

 

BEF II – This was a short-lived futile exercise which perhaps above all showed further the exception qualities of Alan Brooke. Though militarily, (as he told Foreign Secretary Eden), he could not see what a force of that size could achieve at that stage, he proceeded with deployment in hopeful support of the French. However, he found the situation rapidly disintegrating and the French forces becoming reduced to pockets of effectiveness. The two French Armies actually ended up 300 miles apart!

Brooke consulted with Weygand and Gen. Georges about the Churchill/Renaud concept of a Brittany salient to find Weygrand thought it ‘romantic’ and Georges ‘silly’. Rather than defensive consolidation the French believed capitulation was the only outcome. In an attempt to change their minds Brooke signed (unilaterally) an agreement to defend Brittany. This did not please Churchill who pointed out it did not bind the British government, but, it was probably something no one took seriously anyway. In fact Brooke informed the War Office on the 14th, under no circumstances to reinforce him and that he was ordering the evacuation! Churchill phoned Brooke on 14th June and vented his displeasure reminding him he was supposed to make the French feel they were being supported. Brooke replied; ”It is impossible to make a corpse feel, and the French Army is to all intents and purposes dead!” Brooke records the conversation lasted some half hour with Churchill (as he had done and was to do with other generals – e.g. Wavell) making accusations of lack of courage. Brooke then delivered Churchill a verbal ‘kick in the nuts’ by saying; ”You’ve lost one Scottish Division [the 51st]. Do you want to lose another [the 52nd]?”

This of course is about the most devastating reply a superior can receive, and, was the tack employed by Bernard Freyberg to get his way over the bombing of Cassino. Effectively, if you order me to do what you want instead of what I want, and it goes wrong, it’s your fault! Churchill backed down and Brooke ordered Cornwall to organise the evacuation of all British troops from Cherbourg. However, on the 17th at 10:30, (while the French were negotiating an armistice), Churchill had Jack Dill (Chief of the Imperial General Staff) phone Brooke and tell him he should stay in France and Cornwall should fight on! Dill added he personally though it silly, and Brooke ignored the ‘request’ anyway. At 15:20 Eden phoned up and told Brooke the French Army had ceased fighting and he should evacuate from Cherbourg? This, of course, was what they were already doing?

Cornwall had scheduled the evacuation for the 17th to the 21st to get all the men and vehicles away. Rommel had two panzer divisions closing rapidly and by the 18th they were only 4 miles away. Through extreme effort of all personnel, the last ship left at 16:00 on the 18th and all 160’000 men and 300 guns were evacuated, save one 3.7AA gun and two anti-tank guns which were rendered unserviceable. Air cover provided by 501 Squadron operating from the Channel Islands.

Churchill did not choose to reward Cornwall for his achievement, and went on to try and throw him a few duff assignments later on. However, even Churchill wasn’t capable of doing that to Brooke!

No.9

 

Thanx No.9!

So it was Brooke after all...

Excellent information on BEF II, thanx! I guess the allied really trusted too much in the Maginot line and the war to be much like in WW1.

 

Kai, Allanbrooke..Shouldnt worry I was quoting from memory anyway. So wasnt too sure myself.
Got the Allanbrooke diaries but me all over I would have had to walk upstairs to get it..
Its good though, I tend to post from memory on what I have seen, read or done, and seems to bring others out with some interesting related facts.

Thats what this place is good for.

 

Kai – There’s a short bio of Brooke (or Field Marshall Alan Francis Brooke, 1st Viscount Alanbrooke of Brookeborough, KG, GCB, OM, GCVO, DSO if you wish) at http://www.kcl.ac.uk/lhcma/cats/alanbrooke/br60-0.htm#BIO

His ‘handle’ changed from Alan Brooke to Alanbrooke when he was made a Baron in September 1945. When something like this happens the recipient has some discretion as to how he wishes to be known. He could have elected to be Baron Brooke but perhaps this may have clashed with someone else’s title or he thought it too stuffy whatever. When George Brown, a prominent Labour politician was made a Lord after he retired, he chose to be known as Lord Georgebrown – it’s allowed.

My most used books for Brooke are Arthur Bryan’s ‘Turn of the Tide’ and ‘Triumph in the West’

No.9

 

Urqh - I recommend the 'unexpurgated' War Diaries 1939-1945 by Alanbrooke, published in 2000 by Weidenfeld & Nicolson & recently reprinted in paperback.

 

Martin,I think you meant that for number 9...I indeed have both, and what a flaming good read, no punches pulled. I have been searching my bookcases and boxes (recently moved house) for my copy of the bomber command diaries, that gives info on all missions etc, and blimey, Im sure the mrs. has accidently mislaid boxes full of books, she knows I cant account for em all, and I want to know if this is grounds for divorce...?

 

No comment !

 

All right, Alanbrooke, I get it..finally! Not a spelling mistake...

And thanx for the article No.9!
And thanx for the other info Guys!

 

Crazy D

A pity I missed the bulk of this thread, which you know we have argued before. On occasion we get some people popping up saying that Sealion was winnable usually using parachutists and the Luftwaffe. It reminds me of someone telling me that "I could have been a contender". None of these guys seem to understand the first thing about logistics or airdrops or the state of Britain by early September 1940.

A small point on the navy. Destroyer attacks at night on German shipping, submarines and mines for god's sake - never mind the heavy units: all presupposing the RAF doesn't withdraw north of the Thames, remaining well within reach of the invasion beaches.

If anyone is getting Alanbrooke's diaries, read the stuff on preparing to use Mustard Gas on the beachhead - not in itself decisive but enough with everything else to repel the unprepared and divided German command.

Jumbo

 

Oops:

Mustard Gas....

So they were prepared to use everything...

 

Everything Kai, I think someone already mentioned setting areas of the sea on fire.

I think this is overlooked in the what ifs on any invasion. Britain had not been invaded and conqured for a long long time, we were worried that is obvious scared evern but that was not a bad thing. People on the what ifs dont realise the idea running through the country at that time that this was a battle of national survival, and that meant all or nothing to most Brits at that time. Not having a history of occupation or losing a war, thats not ego its what the people thought, the majority really would have gone down fighting. Fear is a wonderful thing when used in the right manner.

 

Argued, Jumbo? We seen to see eye-to-eye on this one!
(although I'm sure we could come up with something to debate!!!)
(btw.. haven't seen you around in a while. Good to have you back!!! (unless of course I just missed your recent stuff.. in which case, good to have Crazy paying attention!))

Good points on the Navy as well. Yet another ridicilous assumption- for Sealion to even have had a remote chance of success, the germans would have needed ot defeat BOTH the RAF and the Royal Navy!!!

And you do have to love the paratrooper theory. Dropping enough paratroops to take some English cities? Dropping them at night, into a nation that was already VERY conscious of then possibility of german invasion?
Well, sure- if we want to ignore all common sense, such an airdrop coudl have worked...

The main aspect of the whole Sealion discussion, let alone talk of invading Ireland, really falls apart when one considers logisitcs. I know this line annoyed Andreas a bit , but...
"Amateurs study strategy, professionals study logistics"

Urgh, thank you again for confirming that the British during WW2 were NOT in fact a bunch of wimps! Like you say, the Brits were already worried about a german invasion. Had the germans actually invaded, I can't imagine any OTHER scenarion besides the British throwing everything they had at the germans. Mustard Gas, fortifications, Home Guard weapons... none of these things would have been enough by itself to stop the germans. BUT- combine all of those factors with a people fighting to protect their homeland...

But, I'm sure, as has already been mentioned, that the British would have unconditionally surrendered as soon as the first german landed...



Maybe next we can move on to the Japanese invading California...

 

Don´t forget you don´t always need to drop real paratroopers. Didn´t the Germans drop dummy Fallschirmjäger at May 1940 and caused a chaos, just like in Normandy the allied did as well?

With huge amounts of dummy Fallschirmjäger around and all the false alarms some HQ´s would have gone nuts, I think.

This is not to to say I have changed my mind on Seelöwe, but using the forces cleverly is the key to success. I don´t think taking cities is the key, but instead important air fields, bridges, maybe army HQ´s etc.And making the enemy send troops to all directions ( not knowing where the actual battle front is ) is essential in this kind of fighting.

It still leaves the Royal Navy to crush the troops, and it would. As well I read that as the time of Seelöwe approached, something like 17-18th September on one night alone 80 german invasion ferries were destroyed by british bombers. So not even boats to go over with...

 

That is a good one- I think you are right, Kai. At least, I know I've read of at least someone using dummy paratroops. But- would this not have been used as a diversion? I would think that this would only be especially valuable if it was a diversion from the real attack.
And going back to logistics, I certainly don't think the germans could have put together enough paratroops to make an airborne offensive viable.
And the other logistical issue with this ( ) would have been the planes- even the dummy paratroops would have had to have been dropped from planes.

That is also a good point on the transports being bombed- before they were even used. The vessels that were to be used for Sealion would have been docked or stored somewhere until the invasion commenced- making them a possible bombing target.

And related to this- another factor we have yet to examine. If the germans had attempted the invasion they would have had to "assemble" before actually embarking. This assembly would undoubtedly take at least a few days- and it would probably have to take place somewhere on the coast. This would make said "assembly" a PERFECT target for British air raids.

Clever use of forces... in a very removed sense, I would agree with that. Sealion was VERY unlikely to have accomplished anything for the germans. BUT- IF more or less every circumstance had gone their way (unlikely, but possible), and if, as you say, the germans had made VERY clever use of the forces they had, then MAYBE Sealion could have achieved something. Not sure what, but...

It might be interesting to consider the "clever theory"... let's make the jump that the germans had attempoted the invasion, and make the further jump to assume that they were able to get a large amount of the allocated troops and equipment actually landed on English soil... What then? How would the germans have attacked, how would the british have defended, and what would the outcome have been?
Although I guess this also requires the even further jump (feel like a skydiver at this point, but...) to assume that somehow the germans could have kept the invasion force supplied once on English soil.

Still interesting to consider...