V1 against Overlord?

Between June 1944 and March 29, 1945, a total of 9,251 V1 flying bombs were launched against England. Only 2,419 of them made it to their intended targets. Over 2000 of them had been shot down or knocked off course by Royal Air Force fighter aircraft.
An additional 1,971 V1's were shot down by anti-aircraft guns and 278 were snagged by barrage balloons that dotted the approach paths to the south of London.

http://www.tidetech.com/fighterfactory/buzzbomb.html

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What if the first V1´s would have been sent to the landing beaches or the harbours ( like Portsmouth ) instead. How much damage they could have caused for the invasion or to fleet trying to supply the troops? Opinions?

 

Ill go out on a limb here and without looking at any accuracy stats/precision targetting etc...But I would say, that I would class the weapon as similar to the Iraqi scuds, great to use on built up very large city and I impress very large city areas, London is a massive target to hit...
Quite different to use on to any extent on dispersed troop lines. Maybe flinging as many as possible on D day could have done some serious damage, but I think the numbers due to accuracy would have dented any stockpile with regard to use on day 2 onwards etc...

If they were to be released on the beach areas anytime after day 1 then the number lost to defensive measures would have been similar to those lost on London, if not more after the allies realised what was happening. All priority would have been given to defence of the beaches by the naval fleet, barrage balloons etc in more numbers than we saw on day 1, more concentrated AA on shore at landing points, air force highest priority in fighter and re mission of bomber force to eliminate launch sites as number one mission.

As beacheads and troops expand inshore if weapons released at that point then accuracy plays a larger part and I think although localised destruction it would not have been on a massive scale.

2 points though...It would change priorites of naval and air force support and planning and all the consequences that would have for the resupply and land force initial advances.

The effect of maybe not too accurate weapons can be increased by the amount launched at one target.
I dont dismiss the problem of on day 1 if 50 such weapons had been launched on say Pegasus bridge and the forces in the vicinity from airborne and commandos if hitting on time of junction of the forces.

In summary and admit its my own view without really looking into it too much, off the cuff, but the invasion beaches could have been hit, damaged and cause plans to be changed for the initial build up if launched immediatedly on invasion, but I dont think it would have halted the invasion.

If launched at a later time when troops dispersing inland then the accuracy effect comes into play, although worrying to troops on the ground, after a while surely they would be no more effective against troops in the field than say artillery barrage. To make any good effect they would need to be launched in big numbers over a short time span, and then the stock is going to be seriously depleted.

On the moral side, I dont know, maybe would be as fearsome in troops mind as say BEF and French armies had with the obviouly fear installing stukas in the early days of the war...reputation.

 

By D-Day the V-1 should have been fired off during the night. Allied air foces had mastery of the air during the day over the Reich, although 9th A.F. based P-61's did manage to shoot down some 12-15 of these doodle bugs over English air space. The guidance system for the so-called buzz bomb was a failure and there was no set means for accuracy that has been mentioned so far.......now to take the V-2 in the same position, well ah.....

E

 

Yup the v2, no there would be a problem to address....

Yep didnt really think of the launching at night and effect this would have on defence from the air...

But even so surely then the number 1 priority dropping all other invasion related or other bombing plans, the v1 sites would have been massivly bombed with everything the allies had no matter what the losses to remove the threat?

 

G'day

The port of Antwerp was heavely bombed by both V1 and V2 giving big damage, also other continent city's were bombed,Brussels Liege Remagen Arras CambraiEtc. So the Germans did try to disrupt the life in big city's where more troops would stay.

Popski

 

The actual aiming point for V1s launched against England was Tower Bridge....

Most of those that got through fell 'short' ie in the East End/Essex/Kent area. I've read that this was largely due to 'misinformation' being fed to German Intelligence, I think through the 'double-cross' system.

Sorry guys - can't recall where I read this. Anyone else have any idea about it...?

 

G'day

Martin, I looked it up in "Most Secret War" by RV Jones. Page 420 there is a part about "feeding" enemy agents working for the British to give false information to the Germans. RV Jones suggested this falling short of the bombs which meant that the bombs falling short would fall in the area where his parents lived, but you know there;s a war on. On page416 is a map of the actual places of impact and the the places where the bombs fell according to the "enemy"agents.

Dropski

 

The first V-1 was not launched until the 13th June 1944, by which time the Allies had already established a strong beachead, and taking into account the V-1's inaccuracy, I doubt they would have had any major effect on the invasion.

It was also stated that the V-1's should have all been launched at night.The trouble with this, was that the pulse-jet on the V-1 was very visable at night. So the AA/Night-fighters had no difficulty in spotting them.

 

Yeah, I think, the V-1's didn't start falling until after D-Day but the launching sites had mostly been constructed and were ready to use. It was just the availability of the actual V-1's that slowed them down. So if V-1 production had been a few months earlier, there could have been a potential threat to the invasion forces, but for various reasons, probably not enough to stop the invasion.

Martin and Popski are right about the mis-information provided by Britain's "tame" German spies. Most of the information was regarding the accuracy of the strikes, so that ranges etc could be pre-set in the primitive guidance system. These spies provided German intelligence with false info about where the V-1's dropped, and how many got through etc.to build up a false impression that the V-1 was having more of an effect tahn it actually did.

And prior to D-Day there was a lot of mis-information about where the invasion troop build-up was happening (remember Patton's "army" getting ready to invade Calais, etc.?) so even if the Germans had switched the V-1's target from the cities to the pre-invasion build-up areas, they would have still relied on their spies for information, so, naturally the V-1's would only land on the rubber blow up tanks and plywood cut outs that were lying around, not on the real invasion forces, since Britain would have made sure the Germans got the wrong locations.

Besides, as the launching rails for the V-1's had already been built pointing at London, they would have had to build new rails pointing at the invasion build-up areas like Portsmouth etc, and if they had wanted to bombard the beaches, by the time they had built new launching rails pointing at them, the Allies would have been well and truly on their way, so it would have been a waste of effort.

What would have worked better would have been the air-launching of V-1's from He111's like they did from Norway (?) later on. This would have been much more flexible, allowing the V-1's to be targeted on the transport ships in the harbours, or the invasion beaches in the first couple of days, which would have been much more disruptive.

And as for night launches, the flame from the pulse jet of the V-1 was almost as long as the craft itself, so they could be seen from miles away. Easy pickings for any nightfighter pilot.

The V-1 had the potential, if it had been targeted right in the first place, and launched in multiple salvos, to cause a lot of disruption to the invasion build-up in the ports and harbours which were fixed targets, but as for firing at invading troops on the beaches etc. it would have required a much much better guidance system, and launching system, than it actually had.

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"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his."
- General George Patton (1885-1945)

 

G'day

Sniper I think accuracy is the thing the V1 didn't have. It is a terrorweapon because it can strike anywhere in a area, you can't guess where it comes down instead of for instance artillaryshells. My mother saw the V1 coming over in the war as a kid and still can recall the very special sound the v1 makes and the time they all thought one would come down because the engine stopped, but after a few secondsthe engine started again and flew on. The mere sound was enough to stop all life listening for the engine, making sure that if it did stop you were out of the way.There is a website with the sound of a Buzzbomb getting on the way, will look it up.
I thought the Ram jet engine gave pulsed exhaust fumes?

Popski

 

Popski, yes, the V-1 engine did give off a "Pulsed" exhaust, hence the motorcycle engine noise that everyone refers to. But because of the timing of the pulses, the burning fuel came out in an almost continuous jet, easily visible to AA guns and interceptors at dawn, sunset and night.

My mother remembers hearing them come over. Usually everyone just stood or sat listening to the engine noise, and as soon as it stopped, they ducked, even in the shelters.

She says that just that, noise one minute then silence, was enough to un-nerve people who had sat through the London Blitz without flinching.
Just hearing them approach and then....nothing, followed by the sound of an explosion. Scary stuff.
_________________

We shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing strength in the air, we shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender. - Winston Churchill

 

Thanks Sniper

Should have a V1 flying on video somewhere so I'll look it up, but the timing in the engine must be fast to get such an airspeed. And the sound was the terror like both Mums can verify.
In my books and on the net I couldn't find out how long it took to build a V1 site, it say's quick but howlongs that??

Cheers Popski

[ 11. January 2003, 01:02 AM: Message edited by: Popski ]

 

While on the subject of mothers ( ) my Mum lived throughout the war in Ilford, Essex - to the East of London and in the centre of 'Doodlebug Alley'.

The V1s were indeed scary but she remembers the V2s as being really terrifying. It was the idea of no warning at all - 'one moment you were there, the next you were gone'. Although illogical, she felt that aircraft and V1s seemed to be 'atached to the enemy' whereas the V2 seemed completely arbitrary. People certainly became 'jumpy' in the V2 era and even referred , ( almost fondly ! ), to the 'good old V1s'.

 

I've just found out something very interesting

S/L Joe Berry, commander of 501 Squadron RAF, the greatest V1 ace with 61 "kills", shot all of them down at night, including 7 in just one night.

501 Squadron was a Tempest equipped unit which operated at night, working in partnership with searchlight units.

501 Squadrons other night ace's were, Flight Lieutenants Williams, Robb and Thornton, S/L Parker and Rees and Flying officers Deleuze and Miller.

 

Impresseive ! almost like the German Wilde Sauen single engine night fighters. 61 V-1's whoa ! any pics of the Tempest unit possibly ?

E

 

Did not find pics for now but a site of those Tempest pilots:

http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/pilot.htm

 

Kai :

Great link as usual.......here is more info with a pic of several Tempests in day fighter camo and in flight....

www.josephberry.co.uk/7.htm

enjoy and very fascinating

E

 

From what I've read about 501 Squadron in H.E.Bates book "Flying Bombs over England" they were standard Tempests in day camouflage,( V1s don't shoot back )the ones in the photo of the web-site you gave might well be a photo of the squadrons aircraft. The only difference was in the gun-sight, which allowed the pilot to judge range better at night.

[ 11. January 2003, 05:37 PM: Message edited by: redcoat ]

 

Eric, I've checked up on the photo at the web-site you gave, and they are indeed aircraft from 501 Squadron (SD is the code of 501 Squadron )

[ 11. January 2003, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: redcoat ]

 

stats and defence methods for V-1

A major assignment of the 50th AAA Brigade, Antwerp X was the name given to the heroic defense of the port of Antwerp against V-1 flying bombs by 22,000 antiaircraft artillerymen from three nations.
Organized quickly and secretly, this huge command was mobilized just after the V-1 attacks on Antwerp began late in October 1944. Then, for 154 days and nights without interruption, and with ever-increasing fury, the "Battle of the Buzz Bombs" was fought on the cold wet flats of northern Belgium and southern Holland.
Hundreds of miles closer to the Allied lines than any other usable port, capable of handling 90,000 tons of freight a day, Antwerp became a priority target of German V-1s (and , later, the V-2 rockets) for the last five months of the European War. 5,000 buzz bombs carrying five million pounds of ultra-high-explosives were targeted against the city.
The incredible story of how the Allies organized an American-British-Polish joint defense command against the German assault — resulting in some 2,100 V-1s destroyed in mid-air and another 1,500 sent crashing into fields short of their targets .

In all, the Germans produced about 30,000 V-1s. They launched 10,492 flying bombs against England and about 8,000 against Continental targets.

Missile-inflicted casualties on the Continent — mostly in the Antwerp area — totaled 14,758, although only 211 V-1s hit the central port areas.

Between 2 and 9 August 1944, the Allies dropped 15,000 tons of ordnance on German support facilities. Losses were heavy — 1,412 airmen and 197 planes — but thereafter the V-1 launch rates dropped by half.

Detection, Tracking, and Force Control
The first method, called "running commentary".Each station provided a controller who advised patrolling fighters of the incoming missile's course and position. Pilots devised their own intercept vectors. Thus, they ran the risk that several aircraft might chase one bogey, but the method worked well overall, especially with additional ground input for final interception.

"close control," was used by fighters patrolling over the English Channel. Radar controllers vectored the pilots on intercept courses with the incoming V-1s. The V-1s crossed the narrow channel very quickly — in perhaps as little as four or five minutes — and did not stay on radar for very much longer. This cut reaction time to a minimum.It also meant that the defenders had to commit a larger number of aircraft for the same degree of barrier coverage.

Interceptors.The British initially assigned 12 fighter squadrons to the campaign, but many other units tried to engage the speedy missiles on a catch-as-catch-can basis. This only confused the controllers and antiaircraft gunners alike, and many defending aircraft were damaged or shot down by mistake. Within a few days the Allies had limited the effort to their best fighter types, and as the summer wore on, they continually assigned additional units to buzz-bomb defense. By mid-August, 21 Allied squadrons were committed exclusively to V-1 interception, and two more assisted as required.

The buzz bomb's small size and camouflage paint made it difficult to see from above in daylight, especially in the summer haze. The pulse jet's exhaust flame was easily spotted at night, but it tended to appear to the eye as a point of light at an uncertain distance. Even if the sky were clear and moonlit, the V-1's narrow wingspan gave few depth-perception cues for effective gunnery. Moreover, the short reaction time forced the RAF Fighter Command to maintain standing patrols, and fatigue quickly became an additional factor.

As the defenders became more experienced, they found that the best tactic was to approach the missile from above and astern in a long, shallow dive. They usually opened fire at about 300 yards but were careful not to close to less than 150 yards because of the turbulence of the pulse jet's exhaust and the lethal radius of the fireball that would be produced by detonation of the V-1's large warhead.V-1's fuselage was a simple metal cylinder tapered to a point at both ends.This shape tended to deflect projectiles fired from a beam-end aspect. At first, pilots averaged about 500 rounds per kill; this dropped to 150 later in the summer. Much more famous, of course, was the tactic of simply flying alongside and tipping the vehicle with a wingtip.

the defense planners also presumed that the V-1s would approach London at an altitude of 6,000 to 8,000 feet. As chance would have it, the V-1s flew much lower — 2,500 feet on average —and this zone fell between the respective altitudes at which British light and heavy guns were most effective. Finally, to make matters worse, the initial plan was not well thought-out. It stationed the guns close to London and put their fire-control radars below the terrain line to avoid an anticipated German countermeasures effort. This had the double disadvantage of reducing the gunners' tracking times and allowing the damaged V-1s to fall within the target areas. These errors were soon corrected, but the most serious problem remained unresolved: how to coordinate the fighter and AAA efforts.

In mid-July the British decided to move most of the guns to the coast and establish "gun belts," where aircraft operated at their own risk below 8,000 feet.

Barrage Balloons. As a last resort, the British suspended steel cables from barrage balloons in the most likely approach corridors. This effort was the least effective response, in that the defenders had to maintain over 2,000 balloon stations that brought down only about 230 missiles.there is evidence that the Germans took the balloons seriously: some of the downed missiles had cable cutters built into their wings.


In Summer 1944, the Americans introduced two new wonders of technology to the battle against the buzz bombs that proved to be particularly effective. The first was was the "SCR-548" gun-laying radar, which was used in conjunction with an analog computer to automatically track and fire on aerial intruders.The second was the radio proximity fuze, which allowed a shell to explode when it came to within a certain distance from a target, rather than being detonated by a time fuze set before firing.

In January 1945, however, the Germans developed a new version of the V-1 with a range of 400 kilometers (250 miles) by reducing the size of the warhead and increasing the size of the fuel tank.They launched about 275 of these long-range flying bombs against Britain from the Netherlands in March 1945. British defenses were able to adjust to these last-gasp attacks, and the looming defeat of the Reich ended the campaign for good at the end of March.

The assignment to keep the Port of Antwerp open fell to Brigadier General Clare Hibbs Armstrong. He'd commanded an antiaircraft brigade in defending Paris from air attack, and in early 1945 was given the top-secret job to protect Antwerp, code-named "Antwerp X." Had it not been for those 22,000 AAA men commanded by Armstrong, Germany may have kept the Allies at bay and bought enough time for more of their wonder weapons(??)(At the height of the X campaign, 26 V-2s were hitting Antwerp each day )

The official book Antwerpen 50 Jaar Bevrijd reports that 12,000 V-1s were launched at Antwerp during WW II; Allied records indicate that only 2,448 got through, with 211 striking military targets. In addition, 1,341 V-2s were fired at the city, but few of them actually struck their targets. The docks that supplied 80% of the Allies' supplies were saved. Many Belgians, however, died, and the world got its first taste of the terror of the ballistic missile.

Many American AAA units participated in the six-month campaign to rid the Belgian skies of buzz bombs, including (our list is not complete, and is still being checked):
Headquarters Battery, 50th AAA Brigade
Headquarters Battery, 56th AAA Brigade
Headquarters Battery, 17th AAA Automatic Weapons Group — awarded the Belgian Fourragere for action in the defense of Antwerp
Headquarters Battery, 30th Group
Headquarters Battery, 45th AAA Group
125th AAA Gun Battalion (Mobile)
126th AAA Battalion (Mobile)
136th AAA Gun Battalion (Mobile)
150th AAA Operations Detachment
184th AAA Gun Battalion (Mobile)
405th AAA Gun Battalion (Semi-Mobile)
407th AAA Gun Battalion (Semi-Mobile)
494th AAA Gun Battalion (Semi-Mobile)
495th AAA Gun Battalion (Semi-Mobile)
519th AAA Gun Battalion (Semi-Mobile)
601st AAA Gun Battalion — probably outfitted with 90-mm guns.
605th AAA Gun Battalion (Semi-Mobile)
740th AAA Gun Battalion (Semi-Mobile)
787th AAA Automatic Weapons Battalion — shuttled between Steenburgen, Holland and Antwerp to cover several of the so-called "buzz-bomb lanes" leading to the port. At Steenburgen the 787th was situated to shoot down V-1s as they headed across the North Sea to French targets. Their weapons were the 40-mm Bofors gun and quad-50 machine guns.
789th AAA Automatic Weapons Battalion

Members of these units received a campaign streamer embroidered Antwerp X that is a rare and mysterious artifact today.




http://www.strandlab.com/buzzbombs/