The Battle For Verrières Ridge

It's called intellectual plagiarism and copy rights are involved. What Spaniard is doing is called "Paraphrasing" which by definition is not plagiarism as long as you include the sources you use to base your opinion.

Citing your sources is part of historical research and presentation. Anyone who has even rudimentary experience in historic or research presentation should know this.

Copyrights become involved when something is reposted with out credit given to or permission of the original author from where the post was taken from.

If the post is taken from a commercial website without permission there are penalties. If the author has included a "restriction" to their material there are also penalties. Generally articles which are posted on the internet fall into the "public domain" and can be reposted as long as the source is duly cited.

 

whoops!!

 

If it weren't for the other argument in the post, I would have saluted in the post where you added the list of materiels you've researched and cited. I am quite interested in viewing them once I have access to the books. You have made highly charged statements which makes us want to see why you have developed the opinions which you have. That is the reason I want to see your sources.

As to my photos, I will need to have a look. I probably added it back when I was a newer member and didn't know as much as I've learned since. Thanks for pointing them out and I'll add the source. However, if you refer to any of the photos regarding the 3LAA - those are photos provided by the 16th Battery's archive, and I can't source them except for that as they don't always know who gave the photos to them.

When I asked for the sources of your photos it was because some were amazing shots that I'd never seen before and I was interested in knowing where you got them. Sometimes asking for the source is not a sign of disrespect as you seem to assume. If some of us discounted your information or opinion entirely, we wouldn't even bother to ask.

I'm interested in seeing the WWII history of Canada on the Forum, but I want it to be valued as historical fact - not questioned by readers because it smacks of high drama and opinion - or the sacrifices and heroics of the men and women missed because the thread goes off tangent with posters arguing about something else because they are able to irritate each other just by being on the same thread.

I am still interested in reading the compilation of information you have made regarding the Battle for Verrrieres Ridge.

 

Removed out of respect for a great leader! Plus this is Thread 3 that was combined into one.

 

Removed whats been already posted, since this was part of thread 3.

 

No I haven't edited the First Post Inspector, see how many jump to conclusion when not warranted. It shows
Edited since I cut and pasted and moved it to Canada At WAR. http://wwii.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=1052
You can see there both word for word, and it shows I never added or removed nothing on that post.



There both different threads not to be combined, The article I've written is in response to Mr. O'keefe's Article
he graciously posted on this Site. And they pretty much don't say the same thing. It has to do with the Black Watch,
therefore you read briefly what I wrote.


I wrote that in Memory of the 64th anniversary in remembrance Of CF. B.W. Lt.-Col. Cantlie,
and the Members of The Black Watch.I would like it to be separated like it Was. Plus I removed
the Threads and a few due to the childish nature of some members. On 5 Canadian threads I've made
this site turned it into a Freak side show. Then you wounder why many stop contributing.


The Black Watch And Verrières Ridge are two different Topics.


Show respect for threads that are In Memory of CF Personal, especially when they belong to
my Regiment.

 

Before I get into the discussion and controversial aspects of this thread, I would like to honour those who fought on Verrieres Ridge. For those who would like to learn more about the battle from other online or written sources, please see:

Verrieres Ridge

Canada at War

The Approach To Verrières Ridge: Army, Part 25 | Legion Magazine the same article by Historian and Professor Terry Copp is also found here http://www.wlu.ca/lcmsds/cmh/back%20issues/CMH/volume%201/issue%201-2/Copp%20-%20Fifth%20Brigade%20at%20Verrieres%20Ridge.pdf

From Battle of Verrieres Ridge | History Wars Weapons



Verrieres ridge: the bloodiest day | Esprit de Corps | Find Articles at BNET

In Desperate Battle: Normandy 1944 by Brian McKenna - NFB A documentary by previously mentioned Brian McKenna. I must point out that it is part of the controversial multipart series The Valour and the Horror. I know my Dad highly resented the Valour and the Horror and felt it did a disservice to those who gave their lives.

Battle of Verrières Ridge

The Battle of Attrition Continues - Veterans Affairs Canada

Courage in Battle

Interestingly found this from the German perspective: History of the 272 division History of the 272 division

"The artillery regiment frequently found its batteries placed in the direct fire role in order to keep the onrushing British tanks at bay, its guns frequently firing up to 600 rounds a day. By 20 July, Caen had fallen, but the British advance was held up by the German defenses along the Verrières Ridge, held in part by the stalwart Grenadiers of the 272nd Infantry Division. Most of the division’s infantry battalions by that point had suffered losses between 40 and 50 percent.

The Division’s outstanding performance in the fighting near Caen was recognized in the Wehrmachtsbericht of 24 July 1944, which announced to the German people “In the Caen area, the 272nd Infantry Division, under the inspirational leadership of Generalleutnant Schack, has especially distinguished itself through its tough defense and magnificent counterattacks.”

On July 25, 1944, after a preliminary barrage lasting upwards of five hours, forces of the II Canadian Corps initiated a massive offensive across a seven-kilometer front, stretching from the Orne River to Bourguebus Ridge, along the entire northern slope of Verrières Ridge. Although initial successes were made by Canadian forces, strong adherence to defensive doctrine by German forces across the ridge prevented major gains. The 272nd Division was able to inflict particularly heavy casualties on the Black Watch (Royal Highland Regiment) of Canada. 315 out of 325 men were either killed, wounded, or captured.

Counterattacks were carried out throughout the 25th and 26th of July by Heer and Waffen SS troops and tanks, so that by the evening of 26th July, the tip of the Anglo-Canadian spearhead had been broken off and the front line pushed back between two and three kilometers. The next evening, the exhausted survivors of the 272nd were pulled out of line and sent to a quiet area on the front line near the town of Troarn to rest, reconstitute and take in replacements. It continued to reorganize until 3 August, absorbing the bulk of the disbanded 16th Luftwaffe Field Division. "

Kursk in Normandy: Operation ... - Google Books This one is interesting in its assertion. I'll add some of these tomorrow.

 

Before I get into the discussion and controversial aspects of this thread, I would like to honour those who fought on Verrieres Ridge. For those who would like to learn more about the battle from other online or written sources, please see:

Verrieres Ridge

Canada at War

The Approach To Verrières Ridge: Army, Part 25 | Legion Magazine the same article by Historian and Professor Terry Copp is also found here http://www.wlu.ca/lcmsds/cmh/back i...2/Copp - Fifth Brigade at Verrieres Ridge.pdf

From Battle of Verrieres Ridge | History Wars Weapons



Verrieres ridge: the bloodiest day | Esprit de Corps | Find Articles at BNET

In Desperate Battle: Normandy 1944 by Brian McKenna - NFB A documentary by previously mentioned Brian McKenna. I must point out that it is part of the controversial multipart series The Valour and the Horror. I know my Dad highly resented the Valour and the Horror and felt it did a disservice to those who gave their lives.

Battle of Verrières Ridge

The Battle of Attrition Continues - Veterans Affairs Canada

Courage in Battle

Interestingly found this from the German perspective: History of the 272 division History of the 272 division

"The artillery regiment frequently found its batteries placed in the direct fire role in order to keep the onrushing British tanks at bay, its guns frequently firing up to 600 rounds a day. By 20 July, Caen had fallen, but the British advance was held up by the German defenses along the Verrières Ridge, held in part by the stalwart Grenadiers of the 272nd Infantry Division. Most of the division’s infantry battalions by that point had suffered losses between 40 and 50 percent.

The Division’s outstanding performance in the fighting near Caen was recognized in the Wehrmachtsbericht of 24 July 1944, which announced to the German people “In the Caen area, the 272nd Infantry Division, under the inspirational leadership of Generalleutnant Schack, has especially distinguished itself through its tough defense and magnificent counterattacks.”

On July 25, 1944, after a preliminary barrage lasting upwards of five hours, forces of the II Canadian Corps initiated a massive offensive across a seven-kilometer front, stretching from the Orne River to Bourguebus Ridge, along the entire northern slope of Verrières Ridge. Although initial successes were made by Canadian forces, strong adherence to defensive doctrine by German forces across the ridge prevented major gains. The 272nd Division was able to inflict particularly heavy casualties on the Black Watch (Royal Highland Regiment) of Canada. 315 out of 325 men were either killed, wounded, or captured.

Counterattacks were carried out throughout the 25th and 26th of July by Heer and Waffen SS troops and tanks, so that by the evening of 26th July, the tip of the Anglo-Canadian spearhead had been broken off and the front line pushed back between two and three kilometers. The next evening, the exhausted survivors of the 272nd were pulled out of line and sent to a quiet area on the front line near the town of Troarn to rest, reconstitute and take in replacements. It continued to reorganize until 3 August, absorbing the bulk of the disbanded 16th Luftwaffe Field Division. "

Kursk in Normandy: Operation ... - Google Books This one is interesting in its assertion. I'll add some of these tomorrow.

 

Kursk in Normandy: Operation ... - Google Books

Transcribed the following excerpt from the site above:

Chapter 8 Goodwood II: Operation Spring, July 25th-26th p 204

"Following on the heels of Goodwood, Monty did not waste time, for a few days later on the 25th, Operation Spring began. Operation Spring can be viewed as a continuation of Goodwood or as a rerun of it. The cast of characters remained the same, the drama was no less, the disaster was just as equal except this time it fell upon the 2nd Canadian Corps, all tired from Operation Atlantic.

Monty was under pressure, not only from those he deceived but from the American General Bradley who was ready to launch Cobra. Monty presented his high concept to the Canadians, to once and for all take the ridge that had eluded them in Goodwood. To add some punch, Monty gave the 7th Armored and Guards Armored Divisions to the 2nd Canadian Corps to be used for a breakthrough unit. The 2nd Corp had taken over from the battered 8th British Corps in the villages of Bras, Hubert-Folie, Bourguebus during Goodwood. The Canadians now were facing Tilly, Verrieres, and Saint-Martin/Saint-Andre. This Canadian assault on Verrieres Ridge was originally planned as a holding action to assist the American breakout, Operation Cobra; but on July 22nd Montgomery changed his plans. Monty informed these changes to Eisenhower in a letter stating that he was not going to "hold back or wait" for the Americans. What Monty presented was easy: The tried 2nd Canadian Corps, reinforced with two British armored divisions, was to attack on July 25th, capturing Verrieres Ridge and advancing south to secure the next high ground at Point 122 near Cramesnil....in essence, it was Goodwood II. Oh, if things were this easy! "

Follows with detailed account of the battle plans, and comments on them, the terrain including descriptions of village buildings.

..."If all went well some 10 km would be gained.

What the Operation was really meant to be remains a mystery. Monty said it was another attempt to reach Falaise. But to the commanding Canadian General, Simons, it was a "holding attack" designed to draw German divisions away from Operation "Cobra" attack at St. Lo.

The Canadian objective (as finalized) was the high ground on either side of the Caen-Falaise road, the crossroad west of Cramesnil, and securing villages on and behind Verrieres Ridge and Tilly-la-Campagne beyond Bourguebus. For some odd bizarre reason, the Canadians decided to use a minimum of forces in Spring. On paper the plan looked fine, but when the details were worked out, it had failure written all over it."

..."From Tilly, Faubourg of Caen was in plain view as were all other towns. German gunners in Tilly could attack any enemy movement swinging around Verrieres."

"Known but sadly forgotten by British intelligence were the mining shafts and tunnels in the area. These allowed German troops to pop up in the Canadian rear after they had cleared it out. This ability crippled the Canadian advance. It was one step forward, two steps back. Numerous sources state that on July 24, 1944, the British were not fully aware of the underground mine system with multiple entrances. The war diary of 6th Infantry brigade states that after fighting around the "Factory area", the Canadians suspected that mine shafts may be the reason. One main shaft ran all the way back to Rocquancourt from Tilly, and it was only discovered many days later. Using this shaft the Germans could move in and out of the village freely. (Americans had similar problems with the NVA in Vietnam 20 years later).....Suffice to say, the British intelligence had completely failed in this revelation, ironically, the mines were well known to the British mining industry! Perhaps, they were simply overlooked, or perhaps someone had forgotten to inform the Canadians."

Next in the chapter is a description of the experienced dug-in German forces facing the Canadians.

 

Spaniard, re your post #20 in this thread http://www.ww2f.com/467485-post20.html

I am assuming that this was your source, since you have repeated some of the phrases word for word. Notes further to a few of the entries in the Black Watch war diary. They are based on the

Thought I'd help out since questions have been asked about your sources. I noted in a post prior to this one that you mentioned using The Black Watch War Diary for information. I had my interest piqued when I realized that that in the writing I had interpreted as being yours, the description of events on that day were in the first person, and as I've always assumed you weren't part of the Black Watch in WWII, it was rather jarring.

On another note, the more I read and the more aspects I research, the more I realize how sad it is that the bravery and sacrifice and the utter horrors the men endured is clouded by the contentious issues which surround the Battle for Verrieres Ridge, particularly the attempts to villify any one particular individual for the events which occurred. Any villainy really only occurs when there is a premeditated decision to cause a regiment to be destroyed in battle for personal objectives. Making a wrong decision in its utilization in the planning or execution of a battle is not evil.

 

First I"m no longer on this Site, Just passing by to Cut and Paste many of my threads++++, Or to see "What's-Up. My Contribution is on hold for a Long Time, that Being said.

My assessment of this Battle is now 70 pages long, at the end of that post I marked not finished I believe still Adding, since that's the first draft you read. The First paragraph now Starts according to the Diary of Private W.T. Booth (D-83056) Intelligence Section of Battalion Headquarters, First Battalion Black Watch, "Accounts." Then I marked End. Just Like I start each Day account from the 18th to 28th with the BWORWD and mark End when entry finishes for the day. The rest is me, and his not my main source just one of over 100++.

The Black Watch O.R. War Diary and Pte. Booth Diary are not the same. I never Wrote those Diaries therefore how could they be mine??

Your Opinion for someone who just learnt of this battle, recently is normal. The Fact he was Artillery plus the posative accounts you read on him, especially if you've read all the Pro Simonds Supporters accounts in books, Articles ect. Spend thousands of hours and decades you might get a more clear picture of the events that unfolded for 18th-Jun 25th 44, and Why. "Simonds Infamous Artillery" according to documentedaccounts caused 1000nds++ of Canadian Deaths, as for wounded in WWII only God Knows.

Many Canadian as World renowned Historians have concluded that Simonds was reckless as careless with the lives of Many Canadian Soldiers and responsible for the High Casualties, as He arrogantly blamed many Regiments for their misfortunes in many Battles.

If I had a Choice of two, I rather of served with Patton, then with Simonds. At Least Patton showed remorse for some of his mistakes as held herself accountable, Simonds not even if hell would freeze over.

Canadian WWII Vets as many Regiments need restitution as ample Apologies from our Canadian Government. And that Day is coming Soon.

Simonds Is the one to Blame, since it was him that ordered many to their deaths, when it could of been prevented as many have already claimed, myself included.

Since you have No military experience, Rule number one in any Battle when facing an embedded fortified enemy!

If you want to continue see Me At "Canada At War" http://wwii.ca/

 

It has more to do with how the quotes you "mined" have the appearence of being "your" experience; because you do not sufficiently credit the sources, that is the biggest issue with cutting and pasting posts.
Also if you look at the different fonts used throughout your post; they often differ in style and size throughout the paragraph.

What does the above have to do with anything?

 

Yes I saw now you combined 3 different threads into one, looks like complete confusion and mayhem as you read through the posts. Just delete, Remove the Thread Completely, with my Blessings.

I know you and the Mods can see when I Edit. I know how your system works+++Old School bolt-on.

Now my question is how can I edit my First post on "Operation Spring Who's To Blame for the Horrific Carnage?" If the Edit Button is no longer there and has been removed by your system a Long time ago?

I have moved on around a month ago as you've seen, so no big Deal. It's mind over matter! I don't care or mind since this site doesn't Matter to me anymore.

You all have a nice Day now, you hear.

 

Although the point and topic of this thread is very valid, sadly I have to say that it does not now seem to progressing as an interesting discussion.

Can we please keep any further contributions brief and to the point ?

 

I cut and pasted from my Word Document 70 page assessment, Some times "Your System" wont Allow me to change the Word Style or Size? I added his comments like I added Many others, Just forgot to add infront who it was from, Like I said First draft. No big Deal "Hollywood" I've moved on

 

Well, I do thank you Spaniard for listing the many valid sources for information regarding Verrieres Ridge. I'd have saluted you, but being insulted in the same post rather nullified that. You are quite mistaken in assuming that knowledge of Verrieres Ridge was new to me; however, your dramatic pronouncements were.

While I may never have served, it did not stop me from learning about the military as I was a child of the Canadian Armed Forces since my Dad not only served in the army for all 6 years of WWII, but also served afterwards as an NCO in the RCAF - being awarded the Canadian Decoration in the days it took more than 10 years service to earn it. His service and lifelong interest and knowledge inspired me to gain whatever knowledge I could myself.

There are many Canadian posters on this website and I hope that they are fully aware that the negative exchanges which occurred with you had nothing to do with your nationality, or that your posts were about a Canadian World War II subject but for the manner in which they were presented. I wish you well at the Canadian site, where I hope you will present yourself and your information in a manner which will allow intelligent and mannered discourse.

To others who read this thread it does actually contain worthwhile data, certainly good reference materiel to review (now!), and it is important to understand the deadly impact of Verrieres Ridge, Carpiquet, etc in Normandy was to have dire effect in its cumulative effect upon the operations by the Canadian Corps and its ability to fulfill demands upon it in successive battles, such as the clearing of the Scheldt.

 

To all Students! This Post has many incorrect Accounts++. P.S. As for "Mckenna Brothers" accounts and
the link she posted to his documentary take it with a pound of salt. Even Copp snapped when he saw it!

Then you wounder why many still use outdated info.

I'll get back to your other MSG much later.

Someone that hasn't served in the army, or didn't even go through boot camp. Has no Military Tactical experience
to me.

And Just because your Father Bless his heart, severed has nothing to do with it.

The fact you have no military training is, Unless you served then I'll gladly give you ample apologies for that comment.

Like you made a Comment on a Post after I made a personal comment from experience, Not Political as you interpreted it.
Quote macrusk; " A Comment from a country man who apparently served in the Canadian army" that by Canadian or US dictionary
is an ?????? comment directed towards An X Canadian Certified Soldier that served with the S.S.F. OSONS.



Apparently is like your saying supposedly.





Fare Winds``~~& Soft Landings.