Postponed Operation Barbarossa

Wat if germany didnt attack The Soviet Union in 1941 instead march 1943 that would give germany plenty of time to build up their armys and airforce to stand a much better chance of sucessfuly invading soviet union and being victories than they were in 1941 during that time they could secure north africas oil supplys and plan an invasion of the soviet union much more carefully than they did in 1941 they could invaded in march of 1943 to avoid the winter snow preventing it halting their advance if they gave center army group the best tank divisions and infantry divsions plus all the airforces attention they might of advanced to moscow and maybe leveled the city using thieir airforce than invading it that say if the north army group didnt besiege lennigrad it would enable center army group to have even more divsions avalible to match moscows defence in numbers if they advanced without ever halting they could of got moscow before soviet union could stop them.
could this of worked.
?

 

Read here - http://www.ww2forums.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000368

Barbarossa was a lost cause what ever the year.

 

yea, i read... i agree...lost cause as you say

 

YEAH BUT 2 YEARS OF INCREASEING DIVISONS AVALIBLE THEN ATTACKING WITH 100% TOWARDS MOSCOW WITH THE NEW TIGER TANKS AND LOADS OF OIL AVALIBLE AND NO SUPPLY PROBLEMS COULD THEY OF JUST ATTACKED WITHOUT GIVING A CARE IF THEY LOST LOADS COS THEY WOULD ABLE TO REPLACE THEM QUICKLY

 

Yah it's kinda like finding the biggest kid on the playground, and kicking him in the "beans". It wouldn't matter if you did it at noon, or three o-clock, you're still gettin yer butt whooped!
Gaining more ground and inflicting more casulties would not change the enivitable outcome of defeat. Hitler bit off more than he could chew.
A lost cause for Germany, Russia had too many soldiers... now China might have a shot at it. They have even more.

 

The problem with waiting two more years is that the development of the Tiger tank came from running up against the T34 and KV tanks in Russia. The Russians were just beginning to field these new tanks and the troops at the line between German and Russian didn't have very many. If the Germans had waited until 1943 the Russians would have been fully equiped and the Germans would never have developed the Panther or Tiger tank. The wait would have only made the bully they picked on bigger.

 

They had Panthers and Tigers at Kursk....did'nt make any difference. PZ IV's could do the job.
The Luftwaffe leveled Stalingrad....did'nt make a difference.It actually helped the Soviets.

What's a Tiger going to do assaulting a shelled out city?
The problem[or one] was getting the equipment/supplies to the front.And the men.
Remember that most German troops walked through Russia.
Even taking Moscow would'nt guarrantee anything.
How many times did Kharkov change hands?

 

The First Battle October 41
The Second Battle January-February 43
The Third Battle March 43
The Fourth Battle August 43
(Kharkov the fourth largest city.)

Source that great magazine, After The Battle No.112 The Four Battles For Kharkov.

Russia is a much bigger country more man power, more factories more weapons and so on. Right from the start; AH was a fool who lost what ever the year he attacked game over.

 

Hey, BigIce, you are stealing my arguments before I use them

Yes, both Panther, Tiger and 7.5cm Pak/KwK 40 were developed after contact with the T-34, so late Barbarossa does not mean starting with the Cats (or long gun PzIVs or StuGs), quite the opposite - there wouldn't b any while the Sovs had already starting replacing the hordes of T-26 and BTs with T-34 and KVs.

 

DIDNT A POPULAR ROMAN GENERAL SAY ITS NOT THE NUMBER OF TROOPS THAT WINS THE BATTLE ITS THE QUAILTY OF THE TROOPS THAT DECIDES.?

 

Panther tank definitely was the German version of T-34 but I do think the Tiger tank or the "heavy tank" was already being planned early 1941.

http://www.worldwar2aces.com/tiger-tank/

On May 26th May1941, during a Germans armament meeting, Hitler ordered for the creation of heavy Panzers which were to have an increased effectiveness to penetrate enemy tanks; possess heavier armor than was previously achieved; and attain a maximum speed of at least 40km/h. Another condition was the prototype had to be completed and presented to Hitler in time for his birthday on April 20, 1942. These key decisions led to the development of a new heavy tank, the Tiger 1. This project was known as the "Tiger program".

 

Not alot of point the Russians would always win against axis
simple to many.

 

I agree with Bigiceman

Red army grew stronger with the time

USSR had a better industrial and manpower potential from the start and filled the gap in equipment quality as time passed.

Barbarossa caught the Russians in the middle of the modernization of equipments. T34's and IL2, for example, where just being introduced. Same goes with modern fighter planes.


- from summer 1942 on, all replacement planes sent to frontline units were modern marks, gradualy replacing old Polikarpovs.

- from december 42 on, production of not so old but doomed pre-war designs (like Lagg3(mass production) or Mig 3) was halted

+ the fact that, in 1941, German industry was far from full speed but in the other hand was not submited to allied bombings

to sum it up, the gap in equipments quality was way more in favor of Germans in 1941 than in 1943.

 

You are right, Kai, I forgot about the early start on Tiger development. Nevertheless, that was done before contact with the T-34 and KV, so the rest of the argument stands. Nevertheless, the Germans would come into contact with larger Allied guns, 6pdrs, Grants and Shermans in North Afrika, so we could expect larger German tank guns, albeit somewhat later.

In any case, if Barbarossa is delayed for a couple of years, I wonder what Hitler would be up to instead... Battle of Britain Mk II in 1941? Heavier investment in North Afrika? More resources diverted to the Navy?

 

All these are with the assumption that the Soviet Union doesnt first collapse or break apart from economic and financial problems.

 

Well, probably not from financial problems as the Spanish communists shipped all the gold from the Madrid´s saves to Stalin in 1939 when the civil war ended. And there was quite alot of it from South America,I believe!!!!

 

If the SU did not collapse due to internal strains after being invaded, why would it do so without the invasion?