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The 5.56mm Round, Is For The Trash Bin!

Discussion in 'Free Fire Zone' started by Spaniard, Oct 3, 2010.

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  1. Spaniard

    Spaniard New Member

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    Ivied vigorously complained for decades concerning the Stopping power of the 5.56mm round which has a kill zone estimated at 200M or less. I read reports Marines emptying a 30 Round Mag at 100 Meters and they still kept running towards them. Marines grabbing captured AK 7.62mm and using them in Iraq.

    The bottom link is a Download PDF Study in 2009 on the capacity of the 5.56mm round, it's quite informative.

    http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/btbjdw.pdf


    Marines as US Troops and S.F. in Iraq and Afghanistan have complained vigorously on the stopping power of the 5.56mm round or the Rifles they're using in combat. The US Forces launched an investigation as NATO in this Matter, concluding as questioned the marksmanship of the US and Marine Corps Soldiers. When the sole purpose of every Marine around the World "Per Terra et Mare", at the moment of truth, is to be an outstanding crack pot Shooter~~~~~~~~~~X. And your telling me S.F. Can't shot a Rifle? thats sounds like a bouch of horse droppings to me.





     
  2. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

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    What is that word "Ivied"

    That is actually in reference to the lack of stopping power of the round when fired from the M-4 carbine.



    That sentence makes no sense. Why would the US investigate their own forces as an international entity?

    Did you forget to cut and paste your substantiation or reference for this passage; because, it really doesn't fit it.

    Could you explain that sentence as well?
     
  3. belasar

    belasar Court Jester

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    Never eat at a place called Mom's',

    Never play cards with a guy called Lucky,

    And never, ever, argue rifles with a Marine!.
     
    ULITHI, C.Evans and formerjughead like this.
  4. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Ace

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    You´re right belasar, but i have an point on that. The funny caliber of the new rifles aren´t designed to stop enemys on bigger distances. They are good at distances around 1-150m but only for the especially designed unstable bullets which give heavy injuries. We tested them at the Army and on longer distances the usually starting to tumble and on distances from 280m they often hit the target transversely.And beyond the 500m a normal car door is able to stop them. At Afghanistan they had big troubles to penetrate mud walls with them so your boys are using their old .308 for making an better job. In my opinion the 5,56mm is good at short distances but for anything that is beyond 100m i prefer my old HK G3.
     
  5. Spartanroller

    Spartanroller Ace

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    While I totally agree with you - it sounds like you may be talking about the early 5.56 round with only 1:7 turns of rifling - the performance, tumbling problem and longer range accuracy was much improved with the later rounds and 1:12 turns, although I'm not certain what they are currently using.

    But I would rather have a 7.62 any day.
     
  6. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Ace

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    Nigel, thats ok with the turns but the little bullet isn´t that effective as an .308. They have now the allowance to use the AP rounds to have an chance to get thru the thin mud walls. Gives you not a good feeling during an patrol?! And when i think of the shooting test with an .308 with armor piercing ammo you can get thru concrete walls try it with the 5.56mm. If you´re lucky you can use the little hole to hang a pic at the wall.
     
  7. Mark4

    Mark4 Ace

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    Every body knows the 5.56 has a lower stopping power compared to the 7.62 G3 is a good rifle but M14 is better:)
     
  8. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Ace

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    Both are great Sam! And for their sniper version, i won´t see any difference.
     
  9. belasar

    belasar Court Jester

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    I suspect it comes down to weight, American troops are generally expected to carry body armor as well as other gear compared to the enemies we face. Some trade off has to be made concerning how many rounds you take into combat. I am not saying its the right choice, just the one made.

    The 7th Cavalry ran into the reverse problem at the Little Big Horn. They used a single shot, heavy round that had great stopping power at long range, but the battlefield was undulating and favored the shorter range, faster firing weapons of the Indian tribes.
     
  10. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

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    There is one huge thing you guys are over looking when comparing the 5.56MM out of the M-4 and the 7.62 out of the G-3: Environment.

    The M-4 is really not intended to engage targets out past 300m and is in it's prime at ranges under 100m. Conversely the G-3 is just settling down at around 200-300 meters.

    The M4 is also not afull size rifle; it's considered a carbine and only has a 16" barrel, not an optimal length for a full size supersonic light weight projectile. The M-4s also require a lot more "junk" being added to them to increase their accuracy giving the shooters the ability to engage targets at greater distances than the round can accomodate.

    I personally would not try to engage a hostile target at ranges exceeding 150M with an M-4 if I had a choice. Same situation with a G-3 or fullsize M-16 and thats a very different story.

    It would also be difficult for me to imagine a scenario, in an urban environment, where I would not expect a full size rifle such as the M-16 or most assuradly the G-3 to punch through several walls after passing effortlessly through the intended target.

    The 5.56mm is a good round in the right weapon with a person who knows how to shoot.
     
  11. Gebirgsjaeger

    Gebirgsjaeger Ace

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    I agree with you, that you couldn´t compare those rifles. I know the difference and the reason why the M4 was made and i have to say that it is a very good rifle in an urban warfar with an house to house scenario.
    The shooting thru te walls thing is only for the psychological aspect on both sides to show"We can hit you everywhere if we want to!" It is bad for the moral of our soldiers to have to hide while the Talibans are able to pin them down by shooting thru walls and they weren´t able to strike back.
    You´re absolutely right that good marksmanship and the right A$$ guess for the situation makes the 5.56mm in good hands to an very deadly instrument.
     
  12. Spaniard

    Spaniard New Member

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    Firing from any Rifle the 5.56mm is a rinky dink round even in 2010.



    A full lenght M-16 barrel 20 inches gives the M193 round a muzzle velocity of 3200 fps
    A 16 - inch barrel drops that velocity 100 fps to 3100
    A 14.5 inch M4a1 barrel drops that to 3000
    A 11.5 Commando barrel goes down to 2800
    A 10.3 inch commando barrel gives you 2600-2700
    A 7.5 inch "infanta" barrel goes 2300-2400

    Fragmentation of the M193 round needs a velocity threshold of 2700 fps, giving the 20 inch barrel fragmentation range up to 150-200 meters at which velocity is now less than 2700. The 16 inch barrel holds fragmentation to 130-150 meters, the 14.5 m4 up to 90-110 meters, the 11.5 commandos 30-50meters na lang. Those enamored of the 10.3 or worse, the infantas have almost no fragmentation distance left, since they start at 2700 muzzle velocity or lower. Thats why the U.S. army, which is in love with the M4, complains of lack of long-range lethality; and why the Marines, who use the 20 inch barreled M16A4.


     
  13. Totenkopf

    Totenkopf אוּרִיאֵל

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    I was under the impression that Soldiers with the 5.56 generally backed off at a long distance firefight and let the men using LMGs with heavier rounds lay down suppression? Unless I am mistaken "Fire and maneuver" is the rule of thumb in urban Iraq, so why is it that the 5.56 is given such a bad rap by the collective? From what I understand it has performed it's role exceptionally well it its role if a soldier understands the limits of the gun hes using.
     
  14. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

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    You still haven't answered my questions from the first post. Please do so and if you could refrain from "Cutting and Pasting" that would be even better.
     
  15. Spaniard

    Spaniard New Member

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    I'll never use 5.56mm even in CCC, for that I have Beatrice, 3" OOO ST. Magnum and Rifled Slugs, Copper Tipped. :D
     
  16. Spaniard

    Spaniard New Member

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    I have no clue what your whining about again Hollywood. I don't give a ???? about your questions, now go harp Bernice and play your childish games somewhere else butter-Cup.:D
     
  17. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

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    That just makes no sense at all
     
  18. Biak

    Biak Boy from Illinois Staff Member

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    Not to change the subject too much, but is there a badge for "Outstanding crack pot shooter" and is it above "Marksman"?
     
  19. Spartanroller

    Spartanroller Ace

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    It was an award originally proposed by Eugene Stoner;


    Eugene Stoner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    :D:D
     
  20. formerjughead

    formerjughead The Cooler King

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    I believe that shooting medal is issued by the Postal Service. It's made of lead with a copper boarder and is worn in line with the shooters nose equal distance from each eye. Position is often referred to as : "Right between the running lights" :D
     
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