WWII History Enthusiast

I look forward to participating actively in this forum. As you can see by my screen name I have moved beyond basic history of elite formations and have found a new enthusiasm for "revisionist history"; in other words the "what if?" question. Had the B.E.F. been trapped and surrendered at Dunkirk or the Invasion of the Soviet Union gone as planned and Moscow captured before the onset of winter or Allied forces at Normandy defeated and thrown back in the sea by the early release of the Panzer Divisions, etc.

Being an Armchair General has its privileges since we already know the results of decisions made on the spot or in the rear on map boards. I have always been interested on how far the Waffen SS would have matured and developed if the war lasted longer. The Senior Commanders "Sepp" and "Papa Hauser" (not to mention Steiner and Bietrich) were already commanding Armies; not only as a result of their tactics and leadership abilities but because of Hitler's mistrust of the Army especially after the 20 July 44 attempt on his life. The next logical sequence would have been an Army Group and/or OB (Oberfehlsfuehrer) of a Front and the subsequent promotion or "reward for loyalty" to Generalfeldmarshall?

Since the Waffen SS leadership rank structure included a "Fuehrer" (or Leader) in the title and General Officers with the appropriate Army Rank included.... I went through a maturation of different possible titles, finally setting on my screen name. This sounded "PC" as Himmler's title could not be touched as "Reichsfuehrer", nor could his ego allow such a threat.

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Armgruf u. GenFld der Waffen SS

 

I'm interested in your use of the term "revisionist history". In my experience, it has negative connotations such as when 'we' say this wasn't a glorious battle because, or FDR knew about Pearl Harbor, or Japan didn't mass murder and rape the Chinese etc.

opinions?

 

Nicnac

Funny you mention that because the term has been unfortunately used synonymous with “apologists” in an attempt to erase the many bad things that occurred during the War. This is the opposite of what I hope to convey with the term. Having served in war and experienced its unforgiving “gifts”, I do not subscribe to the romance or its lore. I honor only those true warriors who have paid the ultimate price for their convictions whether or not misguided.

I am only “speculating” the future if different decisions were made and outcomes reversed. In other words, I am not rewriting history to remove the blotches (atrocities) or to provide a public relations campaign to improve the image of a particular group, but rather forecast a different plausible ending based upon existing evidence and the lifting of the “fog” of war.

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Armgruf u. GenFld der Waffen SS

 

A better term to use would be counter-factual history. This means any rewriting of history to suggest a different outcome and explore such possibilities. Revisionist history means to do a rewrite counter to prevailing opinion, and in some cases, relevant facts to come up with what is often a skewed or ideological perspective.

So, what you are after are counter-factual studies. Such as wondering if the Nazis would have won had they won at Dunkirk as you suggest, or what if they had done a massive paradrop on Malta, not invaded Russia in 1941, and commited the mass of their military might against the British in North Africa. Even add in a possible invasion through Turkey into Syria and the Middle East beyond. That is a counter-factual argument.

 

And I should say Germans. As we all know, every German soldier wasn't a Nazi.

 

Nicnac

My current thread I am interested in expanding is the role of the Waffen SS if the War continued and the tide turned against the Allies. The setting would have been post 20 July 44 assignation attempt. Hitler already suspicious of the Army would have in a logical progression given more and more responsibility to the Waffen SS (His Proletarian Guard) as a reward for their loyalty. Hauser and Dietrich had already been given commands of Armies. If Hauser was to have succeeded say Kesselring as OB Sued (South ... without umlauts) when "Smiling Albert" replaced Generalfeldmarschall Gerd von Rundstedt as OB West on 10 March 1945.

My question is ... did the Waffen SS leadership "peter out" or could they have gone on and commanded larger formations (talent and opportunity) given the time and tide of war?

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Armgruf u. GenFld der Waffen SS

 

BrockTours

Counterfactual History it is .... I apparently have not kept up with the new terminology being created to better represent those like me in our attempt to answer the "what if" question. Thank you for correcting the misguided. I will forever endure to keep up with latest fashionable vernacular.

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Armgruf u. GenFld der Waffen SS

 

LOL. Sorry if my post seemed to be critical, it wasn't intended. It really is difficult keeping up with how fast the appropriate terms change. I think your meaning was quite clear in your post.

I, too, share a fascination with the Waffen SS, especially some of the ethnic units, such as the Walloonies. I despise their cause, but it is difficult to find more dedicated warriors than they.

 

I am afraid my realm of knowledge wouldn't do this issue justice.

I like the term "alternate history" best represented by Harry Turtledove "for giving a fresh and original treatment to themes previously dealt with by many others, such as the victory of the South in the American Civil War and of Nazi Germany in the Second World War. His novels have been credited with bringing alternate history into the mainstream. His style of alternate history has a strong military theme with scenes of combat happening throughout many of his works" (Wikipedia)

 

I like the Turtledove series, especially the first one.

 

Slipdigit

Many apologies! Will comply (Wilco). I was only attempting to answer the question proposed to me by Nicnac of what I considered "alternate history" - was not trying to begin thread here. I submitted yesterday in the appropriate room the above mentioned question.

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Armgruf u. GenFld der Waffen SS

 

Slipdigit

I posted a more "informed" thread today in the Alternate History section for your review and approval.

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Armgruf u. GenFld der Waffen SS

 

Slipdigit

Understand thoroughly! I have been called many things in my military career but never a "Whack Job" (Smirk). Rest assured I have control of my faculties. I cannot say the same for my body as I qualify for the Blue Smurf Crowd (Disabled Vet). As a former officer instructor, I am aware of the threat of a "random thought" before being put through an appropriate filter.

I have been fortunate enough to have walked many of the battlefields being discussed in this forum; being part of staff rides and talking firsthand with veterans and civilians involved in these epic encounters. I have also been privy to the Bundesarchiv and other repositories (e.g. The Great Patriotic War Museum in Moscow)

I now have an abundance of time on my hand and am looking to rekindle my passion but this time with a twist. Like fantasy football fanatics (Not a freudian slip... smirk), I have decided to dive into an area I have always considered off limits to purists like myself. Therefore, I have developed internal rules to keep myself from tearing the envelope or thinking too far "out of the box" (might not be able to climb back in).

My background is in Military Art/Science, Military Unit Dynamics and the Evolution of Tactical and Operational units (Brigades, Divisions and Corps). I have always been fascinated how different countries approach tactics, group dynamics and tables of organizations/equipment to build elite units and accomplish amazing feats despite the odds regardless how dificult their mission maybe.

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Armgruf u. GenFld der Waffen SS