Grey Wolf - The Escape of Adolf Hitler

Geddy - I would encourage you to explore the evidence surrounding the DNA findings of Borrman in 1998. There remains significant controversy to this day. Consider Paul Manning's work - "Martin Bormann Nazi In Exile. But perhaps more importantly is this question: Why was it so important for the German government or anyone to prove with DNA testing that certain remains were, in fact, those of Bormann some 53 years later? Even if the remains were this of Bormann, that does not end the inquiry as to when he died and where. Many experts reject the findings from 1998. If Bormann's are so important in 1998, how much more any clues to Hitler in 2011. If DNA could identify Bormann, why not even so much as a piece of evidence of Hitler's remains.

 

Hi, my first post. I found this site while looking more into the subject of Hitler escaping from Berlin before the Russians arrived.

I am about 90% through this book, I purchased it a few days back on Audible (big thumbs up to both the authors and the narrator, Don Hagen who did a terrific job but can't pronounce Chiswick - he says "Chis-wick”) and I am really enjoying it immensely. As someone else said it isn't just about the possible escape of Hitler but covers a whole range of issues; I had no idea, for example as to how much art-work was stolen and hidden by the Nazis, or the importance of breaking the Enigma Codes....I am relatively new to studying WWW2 . Anyhow, this book has definitely made me consider the possibilities of such a plot concerning a last minute escape by Hitler.

It is a great read, well researched and well written and at this stage I am leaning on the possibility of it being true. Interestingly, one of my favourite movies dealing with he last days of Hitler is the wonderful German movie called Downfall and in that they have an amazing actor who is uncannily like Hitler, proving someone closely resembling him could have been used.

 

Stifling Debate.
Sadly "Phylo Road King" who also calls himself "Ornebridges" seems to have some sort of personal vendetta against me. His actions have caused the axis history forum discussion to be closed down, the Amazon.Co.Uk reviews to be deleted (both Good and Bad) and are ruining what I thought was an interesting debate. I have asked him to identify him/herself and engage in an open discussion but he just wants to accuse me of being a neo-nazi sympathiser (I'm Not). Personally I'm disgusted that he names himself after a particularly gallant airborne operation of WW2, as if somehow linking himself to this he gains credibility. If he was a veteran, of any war never mind WW2, I'd be okay with it, but he's just vitriolic. I wonder if moderators could address this. I don't want to close him down, he's entitled to his opinions, but cowardly turning up, everywhere I post or try to engage, under a false name is getting a little irritating and is closing down debate. If he's so knowledgable, and is published why is he so cowardly about identifying himself?
This link may go someway to explaining why we wrote the book.
Let's see, finally, what they have got.
Russians open secret files to refute claims Hitler escaped from bunker - International - Scotsman.com
My best to the forum
Gerrard Williams
co_author
Grey Wolf -The escape of Adolf hitler

 

I have never understood why anyone would feel they are qualified to criticise a book they have yet to read.

I have read (listened) to more of the book, there is only an hour left and it’s just been dealing with how Martin Bormann was short-changed by Eva Perón. As I said earlier this book deals with far more on events surrounding WW2 than I thought it would and even from that perspective it is well worth reading.

 

Sooooo… they disposed of the evidence so that the story may be laid in concrete. I don't see anything in the line of evidence of identities here, just a story from Russian intelligence people. And the only bone fragments left are saying: NOT Hitler and NOT Eva Braun.

Why are they claiming that the bodies were just partially burned? So that the doctor could say that there's no doubt this was Hitler. Did he even consider the possibility that this was a doppelgänger? What did he find? A brass knob of a desk drawer up the corpse's nose?

Oh, the Russian evidence… usually serves the rhetoric purpose, at best.

 

Gerrard...

You are picking the wrong man by going for Phylo.

This man has a great reputation here for level headedness and accuracy in WW2 posting. He hasn't been here very long, but has earnt his place as a true voice of reason. Posts by Phylo Roadking can be viewed by using the search function.

This is, as I have already explained, a public forum for members and guests. Our own rating system weeds out the slackers, and it is obvious for all to see who 'knows their stuff' and who does not. Neo-Nazis and other undesirables are exposed rather quickly. (My particular beef is with Russian revisionism, seeking to whitewash Soviet involvement).

I'm afraid you are attacking someone who has many posts to his credit that are more than worth the time invested.

Getting back to the issue at hand, if this book had any weight or substance to it as an historical document, we would have heard about it by now in the mainstream media. The very fact that this has not happened, a-la "Stern Hitler Diaries", leads me to believe it's fiction. Fiction with good intentions, I guess, but still FICTION.

DNA testable relatives of Adolf Hitler can be found outside of Braunau. The relatives of Alois and Clara Hitler tend the graves of Adolf's parents, so start your search for DNA testing there. In fact, it would simply be easier to obtain permission to get a DNA test sample from the bodies of either Clara or Alois themselves. Why has this not occurred to you? Sounds quite straitforward to me.

The other thing is....FIND THE BUNKER SECRET TUNNEL. Until you do, it's pointless to speculate about possible escapes through secret tunnels. Period.

Address the two above issues and you may even have something on your hands that WILL generate interest and public debate in the manner of the Hitler Diaries.

Anything else smacks of cashing in on the whole subject.

I wish you luck, despite what you may believe.

For the moment, LEAVE OUR PHYLO ROADKING ALONE !

 

BTW....Suicide seems to be the case for Adolf hitler simply because he expressed it often enough. As another poster has commented elsewhere, for Adolf it was either victory or death. The fate of Mussolini played on his mind. He had no wish to be hung upside down from a garage and spat at or shot at by a crowd of "Johnny come lately anti-fascists". Suicide seems perfectly in character for a man that usually staked everything on the roll of the dice or the draw of the card.

Hitler knew when it was time to hold em' or fold em'.....and by April 1945 he was already 'busted' and above '21'. So he folded his cards.

As for the bodies not being Mr and Mrs Hitler, there must have been no shortage of blackened and charred corpses in the environs of the bunker for the Russians to find. Who's to say that captive Nazis gave the soviets a big story as to the excat location of the two bodies? So, when the Soviet Coroner comes calling to identify them, he accepts the story, with no other solid evidence to identify the corpses. Mr and Mrs Hitler finish their days in an unmarked shellhole, while the bodies that the underlings have pointed to are carried back to the ol' Archives of the NKVD for storage. They are presented to Stalin, for the Russian people have been badly spooked by the Hitler boogyman, and wish to know that the beast is finally dead. Stalin doesn't want to drag this of all announcements out, so they close the case file, lock away the fragments in a shoebox, and wrap up the Great Patriotic War for good.

Another point about thw witnesses in the bunker, Heinz Linge, Hitler's valet, has a very clear memory of the aftermath of the double suicide of the Hitlers. He describes Martin Bormann "Pawing Eva Braun's breasts, as he carried her up the stairs with his arms under her armpits." Linge was disgusted with this, for he knew the mutual loathing between Eva and Martin, so he intervened, pushing Bormann aside and carrying his friend of many years up the staircase in a much more dignified fashion. It is this sort of detail that the Soviets tortured out of Linge, and it has more than a ring of truth to it, for Linge not only despised Bormann, but he also knew that Eva would have castrated Bormann, given half a chance. It's fine details like this that come out of Soviet interrogations of bunker personnel that give it the 'nod' for authenticity, rather than some airey fairy story of secret tunnels and Argentina.

Come on, Gerrard. Give us something concrete to go on, rather than pointless speculation for the Project Greywolf gristmill. I am always happy to change my opinion if something comes along that turns my assertions to utter chickenshit, but so far, this has not happened, and you are simply collecting a group of conspiracy theorists together and uniting them with a common cause.

For now, it is your assertions that the greater majority of people will classify as 'utter chickenshit', so prove me wrong.

 

Volga, what would you compare the AH relatives' DNA to? The writers don't claim to have found any remains. Also, there are several eyewitness stories in the book, with similar attention to detail that you value as being credible, that tell about the Hitlers' life in South America. No point in resorting to smack talk before you have read the book. It's not utter chicken piss, more like a smoking gun, but the ballistics still undone. Mainstream media? Come on, they never take risky subjects unless someone else covered it first. Media is a giddy pony and being in mainstream never meant that the truth has been found. Ever heard of Big Lie? But the tunnel thing is interesting. Let's see if the Germans will let someone check that. No going into subway tunnels without permission, but even if you went there and found a tunnel opening, how could you tell where it used to lead?

 

I've had to load and use Netscape Navigator to see the fourth page of this thread for some reason, so I haven't been able to follow the thread for a couple of weeks.

First, I'd like to say a big thank-you for Volga Boatman for his comments And I'm not going to grace GW's comments with any attention....what I AM going to do is pose a clear and defined set of questions for some of the recent posters to answer.

What experts? Can we see a list please?

And do the same experts happen to disagree with the dental identification of 1972?

Does the preface to the book happen to mention that Nick Bellantoni was NOT given access to the Hitler jawbone fragment in 2009 for DNA swabbing?

Does the preface happen to make any mention of the dental identification of the jawbone as Hitler's from WWII-era x-rays and Professor Dr. Blaschke's reconstructed records and modelled jawbone from 1945, by the forensic Biologist and consultant to the German Police Mark Benecke in the last decade?

Have you heard of ground penetrating radar, as is being used in Libya at the moment to search for the massed graves of Col. Gaddafi's opponents? Or any of the various archeologists' geophysical survey techniques of the last twenty years that can determine subterranean features and earth disturbance?



We don't actually even need to know where the proposed "escape tunnel from Hitler's quarters" led to, though it would be nice - it simply needs to exist...



Final question is more of a request of those who have read the book -

Exactly what are the Royal Navy's issues with the sinking of the U518 and U880 in March/April 1945 as described in the book??

 

Hardly a "claim"; it's very well detailed in the autopsy.

And coming from the other direction, we know the difficulty there was turning up enough petrol to burn the bodies completely.

Also - it's actually quite hard to burn a body simply by putting it in a hole, pouring petrol in, and lighting a match; there are several difficulties - depending on what it is, the accelerant used can burn off faster to atmosphere than it burns the actual body; a percentage of it can soak away into the ground; it can simply not burn long enough to consume the body; the fuel can burn off quickly if it's windy; it can be expended just burning off the clothing; the fire can perhaps not reach that very specific temperature and penetration into tissue that body fat renders down and itself starts burning as a fuel, etc., etc....

There's also a fine art to building a "pyre" to burn a body, you need some sort of longer duration-burning fuel, and channels for air to be drawn into the fire underneath it - in the same way air/oxygen is sucked into a firestorm at high speed - to feed the flames.

I suppose this is the point where I should note that I worked for a year in a Forensic Science Laboratory in Northern Ireland at the height of the Troubles

 

Ha. Love it. This kind of stuff never gets old with me. Who doesn't like a good story?..Wonder if peeps will deny Bin Laden/Gaddafi/Hussein etc were actually killed as well...History changes all the time. Wish I had the book to read. Best wishes to you prowolf.

 

Hi Poppy - they have the supposed (and now proved otherwise) skull of Hitler; his jawbone - the one used to identify the body in 1945; Eva Braun's dental remains...and debris from the couch in the Bunker.

In 2009, the Conneticut State Archeologist Nick Bellantoni was allowed to sample-swab the skull and bloodstains on the couch remains; analysis back in Conneticut showed that there wasn't enough left in the blood sample to do more than confirm that the "donor" had been male - and the skull fragment turned out to be that of a young woman between 20 and 40.

But at that time he wasn't allowed access to the Hitler Jawbone; this is perhaps the most important of the relics, as it was what was used to identify his remains in 1945.

Previously, however - a German forensic biologist and consultant to the German police, a Mark Benecke, HAD been given access to the jawbone - and HE had with him x-rays of Hitler's dental work!

Now....Hitler's actual dental record x-rays were missing when the Soviets went looking for them on the 9th of May 1945...that's why they had Kaethe Heusemann identify them by sight and memory....but there are still MEDICAL x-rays of Hitler's skull surviving in Germany; in later '44, when Adolf was complaining of recurring migraines after the July 20th Bomb, he underwent a series of x-rays...and THESE display a clear image of bridgework and other dental surgery carried out by professor Doctor Blaschke prior to that in 1944.

Hitler suffered from very bad teeth, and periodontal disease. Among other things,in 1944 Blaschke had to cut into the gum/jawbone to remove infection, and as well as the 1944 bridgework being clearly identifiable and distinctive, this cut into the bone is too. It's evident BOTH on the jawbone Benecke was given access to in Moscow - AND on the 1944 x-rays.

 

Awww. Well I didn't know that. Great info Pi. This has been an excellent read. Voted.

 

I've always wondered if Hitler was a "true" vegetarian....or had necessity simply made a virtue of it? He couldn't have enjoyed a good steak even if he'd wanted to!

Oh....AND on the replica jawbone that the Americans had Blaschke model for them in 1945.

 

I have added Phylo to your friends Guy the Gorilla and Virginia wade.
And I'm not picking on him.

 

You get a "Like" for this part - a very good point. The rest, I presume, was meant facetiously.

 

I finished the book the other day and have to admit I found it quite a fascinating read, yet although it raises a lot of questions and concerns regarding the official story it did not entirely convince me that Hitler ended up in Argentina as described. But the book does raise questions and gives insight into aspects of the war I didn’t initially know and for that I am glad to have read it.

 

Unfortunately, NONE of the posters I posed questions to have returned to answer them...

....no did the author when he popped in on the 25th.

The questions however ALL remain there to be answered...

At the moment I'm particularly interested in the detail of why the RN was so concerned at the claimed sinking of U518 and U880...

I don't suppose we're going to be told? Just what was posted on page one?

By the way, your statement....

...is incorrect.