War heroine Nancy Wake has died in a London hospital from a chest infection, aged 98 | The Australian Wake, known as the White Mouse, died on Sunday in a hospital in London, where she had lived since 2001. She was 98. ---------- R.I.P. Nancy
Good show, Kai. Thanks for the illumination regarding this important heroine of WW II. Thank you for your efforts from a grateful world, Mrs. Wake.
I only heard today about this brave lady. I'd love to see a movie about her attack on the Gestapo HQ. Anyone know of a good depiction?
Nancy, a kiwi born Australian does have a movie about her "Charlotte Gray" - Played by Cate Blanchette. I have seen a number of interviews with her talking abuut her exploits...one thing that came to mind again and again...is that this woman is a psychopath!... Her comments along the lines of "i killed many Germans...i can only apologise i didn't kill more...and i enjoyed every moment of it.." (Not a direct quote) Her lack of remorse, or pity...her admission of enjoyment...(About 17%) of any military is made up of psychopaths (Good place to kill people and get away with it)...not denergrating this warrior woman by any means...just an interesting observation.
Nancy Wake, the French Resistance fighter who became Australia's most decorated World War II heroine, died in a London hospital at the age of 98 on Aug. 7, 2011, a few weeks shy of her 99th birthday. The New York Times book of the dead has become an annual affair — a just-in-time-for-Christmas collection of the newspaper’s famed obituaries. The latest version, the second, gathers 144 obits from August 2011 through July 2012. The book takes its title, "The Socialite Who Killed a Nazi With Her Bare Hands and 143 Other Fascinating People Who Died This Past Year", from World War II heroine Nancy Wake See: http://www.amazon.com/Socialite-Killed-Hands-Fascinating-People/dp/0761170871
That's interesting, and worth a thread in itself. Many observers have written of how only a minority of soldiers in any war are capable of being cool enough under fire to execute a strategy or change a strategy based on changing circumstances - to advance, to kill, to win. Most soldiers follow in the wake of these few. Characterizing those few as "psychopaths" misses the mark. I don't know what drives such men (or women, in the case of Nancy Wake), but it would make for an interesting discussion.
I am not a psychiatrist by any means butI personally would be reluctant to classify her as a psychopath until I know more.. I feel certain CAC knows much more about her than I, an is Australian as well, so this is not a criticism but rather an observation. Given France was occupied by a country they had fought in part at Waterloo, the Franco-Prussian War and certainly WW1 and then had Gestapo about along with SS units and exportation of Jews and French men into forced labor I can understand how she might have felt if she lived there with her husband .. If she innately enjoyed killing random people she would certainly qualify but if she learned to like it as a product of what was happening to her, her husband, and many members and friends in the Resistance who were tortured and killed then it seems perhaps a different matter. I am aware that some Frenchmen , yes I know she is not French but thinking of the atmosphere, came to a sort of resigned fate to being occupied, some even collaborated but some were probably rather adamant about freeing their country. Though she was not French she could well fell like one of the latter. She may indeed have been a psychopath in the clinical sense but from what little I know she may well not be. I have a psychiatrist friend that I will ask if one can be driven to personality change by circumstance and if that changes definitions. She sounds like a pretty heroic lady to me. I agree, this would be a useful and interesting new topic all by itself. Ironically the first book I read on my new Kindle is that by Eugene Sledge. His observations are certainly food for thought and discussion. BTW, I got the Paper White version and the contrast as well as changing type size are a boon to those with poor eye sight not correctable totally by glasses. Gaines
Mods? I *think* (having very little psych training beyond the "101" variety) that a psychopath would continue to kill after the war. A soldier who hates the enemy and even enjoys killing him, is not (in my opinion) a psychopath. Was a Russian soldier who joyfully killed Germans after his village was burned and his family killed, a psychopath? I don't think so. An American soldier after Malmedy killing Waffen SS prisoners? I don't think so. And Nancy Wake, after her husband was taken away and the mass deportations and retaliation massacres in France? I don't think so.
Satisfaction in these situations would be "normal"...actually enjoying it, more importantly, displaying no remorse, immediately after and years later...a sure sign. She killed "unknown" people and got a thrill out of it...This woman would be considered sick today...
At the risk of further taking this thread off topic, I respectfully disagree. War is very personal. Soldiers lose friends and see terrible things. Killing another man who represents payback for something done to you and yours might very well bring about joy in an otherwise quite normal mind. I suspect, afterwards, most soldiers might well play along with the politically correct posture of "regret" while secretly having no regrets whatsoever. The notion that soldiers should feel angst about killing the enemy is a rather recent phenomena. One has to remember the old adage "The artillery does the killing and the infantry does the dying" and put that into perspective - most soldiers don't kill, or of they do it's something they don't see up close. In the infantry, most men follow the few who lead (and do the actual killing). Those few who lead (and kill) are those regarded as the finest soldiers - the 17% you mention above. I don't think they are psychopaths. I think they are warriors.
Warroirs indeed...during war...Rough nut as#holes and psychopaths are most welcome during war...Wars never last though... : ) I see your point, but a psychopath is a psychopath...anyway, id suggest reading any work done by LtCol Dave Grossman...17% was just what my memory threw up, id check that...
I'm no warrior, or even a soldier, so take my opinion for what it's worth (not much). The only shots I ever heard in "action" were on a drug boarding in the Caribbean 30 years ago. Me and another guy were going down a passageway checking the spaces on each side with shotguns - the living spaces of the crew. There was a shot that scared the crap out of me and after some time we went ahead and kicked open the fiberglass door of the cabin where we thought the shot had come from. The person within had blown his brains out all over the bulkhead. We later learned he was wanted for two execution-style murders in Miami, so I guess he just wanted to take the easy way out. I was very happy the a-hole shot himself instead of shooting at me. And if he had come out of that door with the intention of using that .357 on me, I don't imagine I'd have felt any regret had I unloaded my shotgun on him. That's only a supposition because I can't really know how I'd feel, but I think I'd have been joyful that the death was his and not mine.
The two arent mutally exclusive...and its the movies who've given psychopaths a bad name...most top execs around the world are either psychos or at the top end of narcism, a step away from psychopathy...But i wouldnt defer to me...as if i know what im talking about!! : ) Its a pity you dont have more experiences other than that boat...you tell a great story mate...you're on my campfire list for sure.
image by PvtJohnTowle, on Flickr https://www.google.com/search?q=isbn+0+7322+6919+9&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=Palemoon:en-US&client=palemoon
With all due respect CAC. I think you're using the term "Psychopath" too loosely. Here is a list of Psycopathic traits from Psychology Today. http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mindmelding/201301/what-is-psychopath-0 How many would you say Ms. Wake displayed, other than feeling no remorse for killing her enemies? Would she have felt remorse for killing an innocent? If so probably not a Psychopath. Does she display a general lack of emotions? Particularly the social emotions of shame, guilt and embarrassment. Does she show a general lack of empathy towards others? Empathy for the pain and suffering of others is the default mode for non-psycopathic/sociopathic individuals. In Psychopaths the default mode is empathy off, but they are capable of turning their empathy on in order to charm or deceive others. Normal people are also capable of turning their empathy on or off, but do so for a different reasons. if your normal response is to to be empathetic to the suffering of others, but you turn it off to deal with aggression by another, you're probably not a psychopath. It's an evolutionary thing, if we were not able to turn off our empathy when attacked, we would not survive long as a species, because empathy for the attacker would prevent our replying in an effective manner. If she can kill an enemy without remorse, but turns around and protects and comforts a scared child, or feels deep pain and loss when a friend, loved one or comrade is killed or injured, she probably not a psychopath. CAC wrote: You mentioned Grossman. Here's an article by him on Sheep, Sheep Dogs and Wolves. It is very illustrative of the mindset of those that choose to be warriors and he doesn't indicate that the one (warrior) requires that the individual be the other (psychopath). http://www.killology.com/sheep_dog.htm CA wrote: From Psychology Central: Common Myth: While many people believe that psychopathy is more prevalent among CEOs and Wall Street bankers, this is a myth not supported by any research. While on the surface it may seem that many of the symptoms and traits of psychopathy might lend themselves to positions of greater power, the two are not synonymous. One of the problems is that psychopaths tend to be pretty quickly "outed" for their antisocial behaviors, because the charm is purely superficial and easily detected over time with greater exposure to the psychopath.
