Did the German Popluation want Lebensraum

Please go into more detail about these adventures as they are most interesting. They must be interesting men to have a beer with, yes?

 

Dear Ulrich, I am sincerely sorry if my post has upset you but I was just addressing serious legal implications of the Potsdam conference. Perhaps you've overlooked the fact that by the Potsdam agreement Volksdeutsche were deprived from citizenship and land ownership rights, irrevocably and permanently. This is too serious matter to be overlooked or neglected.

Regards!

 

Rick,

yes they are indeed interesting men. But it took time to get more and deeper in touch with them but for the reason that i know one of them since more than 16 years they told me some stories. But please understand that i have to ask if i can post some of their stories here. I´ll ask for permission.

In the meantime and if you will translate them by google, here are interesting stories to that topic.

Sdtiroler Freiheitskampf | Sdtiroler Heimatbund - Feuernacht-Gedenkveranstaltung: FP-Sdtirolsprecher ehrt den Freiheitskmpfer Sepp Mitterhofer

freiheitskämpfer prof. dr. günther andergassen feuernacht südtiroler freiheitskampf bas befreiungsausschuss südtirol nordtiroler musikprofessor buch biografie « Hoch Tirol Blog

DER SPIEGEL 10/1964 - DIE ITALIENER HABEN UNS DAS LAND GESTOHLEN

 

Tamino, don´t worry i´m not upset in any way! It was only interesting how easy we all are talking about the death of 100.00 people as "not much is happened" and this is for me too!

 

Perhaps I have expressed myself inapropriately; i know it is difficult to talk about a death of just one human being, let alone 100.000. I just wanted to stress seriousness of legal aspects of the Potsdam onference.

PS: Meanwhile I've downloaded a PDF version of the article "Die Italiener haben uns das Land gestohlen". Interesting stuff. By the way; I was amezed to notice that "Gorbatschow Vodka" existed in 1964! Gorby was ahead of his time!

 

As one who can get out of his tree quite easily, I commend you both on your debating here. Some of us are learining...I know lots on what I know...I don't know enough on what I don't know...Be aware many of us may not comment but are happy to be reading both sides of things here. Its educating and the level of debate you two are driving is excellent....End of love in...We aint American after all....Sorry America....

 

Thanks, Ulrich. Sounds good. I hope they can agree. Yes this is a good discussion you are having.

 

Thank you very much for your kind words on our discussion, Rick, urqh and Lou!

Tamino there is no problem and your expression wasn´t wrong! I understood your point to the Potsdam Conference it was only that we sometimes forget during our discussions that there have been human beeings behind the numbers.
The Spiegel is interesting and the two others are a bit carefully to read, they are sometimes a bit single sided. But in fact it was that way that the gouvernment at Rome took all the taxes from South Tyrol (which were the higest in Italy) and gave them to the south. Than they sent all the South Tyrolian Carabinieris to south Italy and sent them the Italian ones. That was a bad decision cause the South Tyrolians didn´t like the Italians and vise versa. As a consequence of it the ST ( sorry but the short form for South Tyrolians is easier to write) attacked very often small Carabinieri posts in the small villages, took their guns and beaten them. This is the reason why the Carabinier posts in ST are ofte looking like fortifications with barbed wires and high fences. For this and the attempt to mix the ST with the Italians to get the ST blood out of the country, this little "war" happened.

 

Interesting point, Ulrich.

 

Thanks guys for the support for this thread. For months I am coping with the problem how to understand deeper reasons for two major military conflicts in Europe. More I dig, more I realize that German Military Expansionist Objectives existed before a corporal with pathetic mustache has decided to enter international politics.

The idea of expansions towards the East was a well-defined national plan which was just scaled-up by Nazis to the ultimate limits. Hatred, Intolerance, Anti-Semitism, The Lebensraum, Extreme Militarism, Extreme Racism … Everything was there. Only the »Messiah« with funny mustache had to arrive to proclaim the 1.000 Year German Reich.


»The German Empire planned to annex territory in both Lithuania and Poland for direct colonization by German colonists after the forcible removal of the Polish, Jewish and Lithuanian population. As early as April 1915, the Polish Border Strip plan against Poland, which was first suggested by General Erich Ludendorff in 1914, was approved as a German war aim by the Chancellor Theobald von Bethmann-Hollweg. The German historian Andreas Hillgruber argued that the foreign policy of General Ludendorff, with its demand for lebensraum to be seized for Germany in Eastern Europe during World War I, was the prototype for German policy in World War II. Lebensraum almost became a reality in 1918 during World War I.«

Here is a map of the First (Ludendorf's War Objectives) Lebenraum:

 

Indeed a nice fact but if you follow Ludendorffs biography you will see that hes a Mentor to Hitler and he had the same sickness than Adolf: paranoya! He blamed the church, the jews and some miracle powers for his fail. And his entire life was full of intrigue as to be seen in his leadership of the OHL during WW1. He had the same values of humans like Adolf had it later.

Forgot to mention his time as the inofficial leader of the "Tannenberg Bund" which was a politcal melting pot of the Ultra right groups in Germany.

 

I wouldn't downplay general Ludendorf because he was the Chief of Staff and German Prime minister approved his plans. They were serious people with very clear intentions which affected many people, predominanty Jews and Poles. Their policy is very well in accordance to previous German tradition of conquests and expulsions of non-German population. Furthermore, the Polish Border Strip has re-occurred in Poland 1939-1945. Therefore, we may state that there is a continuation of German policy towards her eastern neighbors. It appears that Nazi policy was built on German Political Heritage. Versailles is just a bad excuse for extermination of Jews and mass expulsion of Poles. And this hasn't started with Hitler and Nazis. The blueprint has obviously existed before.

A map below indicates territory of the Polish Border Strip, where Jews and Poles were to be expulsed.

 

The Kaiser actually forced Bismarck out of office. He wanted a more direct role in events, and was far more liable to be influenced by others than the "Iron Chancellor". Bismarck had wanted to follow a policy to only keep France isolated. He supported strong ties to both Austria and Russia, and no conflict with Britain. He was opposed to an over seas empire (and a large navy). Remember that Britain and Russia were not on the best of terms, and that Britain and France had come close to war in Africa (Fadosha). This was a clever, boring policy.

Once removed from power the German government was free to follow different policies. Germany tied itself to Austria-Hungary ("a corpse"), and cut Russia free.This satisfied certain economic groups in Germay, but led to an understanding of concern between France and Russia. The Kaiser wanted an empire, Krupp wanted to build, a 'Navy League' formed and Britain became alarmed. Factors had fallen into place.

Yes, the Kaiser, and key elements in German society, were very interested in the East and had gained the upper hand in the government. More detail is possible but I don't want to stray from the thread to far. But before Hitler there was a very real interest in the East (The Ukraine in particular, I think).

 

So the Germans were to immigrate to Turkey ? How ironic whne you realise it is the other way round today.

Also I wonder how Hitler would have get Süd Tirol back without a war with Italy.

The annexion of Belgium seems a bit farfetched too. The last time it belonged to the Habsbourgs was in the 18th century and neither the Flemmish, nor the Walloons speak German.

 

Of course Skip: The defeat of 1945 has changed German society for better and they now have the best Lebensraum ever: the Federal Republic of Germany.

Regarding Turkey, just go to my post #111 and you will find out that, according to the German War Objectives, Turkey was left intact as “Osmanisches Reich”. Chrimea, however was foreseen as suitable territory for German settlers (“fur Deutsche Besiedlung vorgesehener Raum”).

It is impossible to view this topics through criteria of the 21th Century but purely through historical facts and documents. How can we unserstand people like the Kaiser and Ludendorf who menthally belong to the Middle Ages? To understand the subject of this thread we have to focuss to the historic facts like “Lost Knight” did.

 

You have to study von Ludendorffs ego. He was always a scheming guy which used Bismarck for backing him and as a alibi for his actions. He had a huge ego and wasn´t afraid to make alliances with people he hate, as long as they were usefull to reach his targets. He supported the Nazis and as soon as he could see that they aren´t that what he wanted, he was rowing back and said that the Nazis are mad. In my opinion he was narzisstic opportunist.
The Turkey was interesting for having a way to the Middle East and a full access to the Mediterranian Sea.

 

One of the confusing issues with this point is, 'Which German people?'. German society was/is made up from many various sectors, each with it's own desires. Ludendorff well represented the group of East Prussian land owners that were being severly hurt by pre-1914 Russian grain imports. These imports drove down grain values in Germany; this might have made many Germans happy, but not the East Prussians that couldn't compete with the Ukraine. That trade brings people together is not always the case.

To make the point real clear, look at Hitler's concept of the future East and compare it to the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk. Do not overlook the separate "bread peace' that Germany signed with the Ukraine delegation at the same time. This wasn't the 'over the extreme racism of WW2, but the land areas are pretty close to Hitler's ideas.

The Italian - South Tyrol issue reminds me of WW1 when Austro-Hungary fianlly began to send Slavic units to fight Italy and units from 'Italian' areas to fight the Russians in an effort to stop desertions.

And yes, the Germans ended with great Lebenraum, the FDR. Bismarck was right here; Germany did not need land to the East, nor an over seas empire to be great. Perhaps the Kaiser could never get over that old (middle ages?) concept of vast landed estates.

 

This kind of question is very hard to answer and only a specialist historian would be able to give you a picture of public opinion in Germany. I can't tell you what was going on but I can give you reasons why such things are hard to measure and how to measure it.
After the Nazis locked down on the freedom of the press people who are opposed to the Nazi view on Lebensraum would not have the opportunity to express their opinions and just as important the German public became captive audience for Nazi propaganda so it was questionable how they could have informed opinions on the German economy.
Investigations into this problem would have to rely on anecdotal accounts with its attendant problems of not being representative of how "the German people" felt or thought. For example diaries and notes and letters would only represent individuals. Also the amount of propaganda lavished at a policy might be indicative of how much disagreement there existed. I am sure the Sicherdienst compile reports on civilian sentiments and opinions which might have the answers you seek... not a real answer I know but it might be helpful if you want to start digging.

 

Continuity is more than obvious:
Photo 1: Hindenburg, Kaiser and Ludendorf
Photo 2: Keitel, Hitler and Jodl.