MTB or S-Boat, which would you command?

I recall reading about American PTs in the Med, which had radar, teaming up with British MTBs, which at that time did not, for night operations.

 

except for possible surface to surface with their own heavier shipping such as destroyers. the KM 3rd S-Flt quite active till wars end in the Med were almost forgotten as radio contact between Boots and Boot to land/base was about all they had as they made pin-prick attacks at night against Allied vessels and Allied air escorts became very numerous and effective in low level raids.

 

This is the book I'm reading View attachment 16132

 

a good basic book for starts Jim. problem is there is really nothing descriptive on then 1945 operations between the KM S-Boot arm and the British MTB forces, and there should of been as the records are all intact for the Allies anyway, for the German side of things no, everything by the beginning of February 1945 cannot be accounted for except for individual war diaries.

 

It's a fantastic book, it cover the war in the english channel very well from 1941-44. I find that the war between the S-boat and MTB in the channel is often the forgotten part of the battle of the atlantic. Any convoy that survived the U-Boats would have to run the gauntlet of S-Boat attacks in the channel. S-Boats were the 2nd most lethal part of the Kriegsmarine in overall merchant kills

 

I skipped that book as while the subject fascinates me the title and cover put me off, (and IMO the quality of the recent Ospreys is mixed) the opponents of the S-Boats were the MGB not the MTB and many Germans considered destroyers a much bigger threat than the allied boats. IMO we still lack a "definitive" English language book on the Schnellboote that goes back to primary sources instead of building on top of previous pubblications. There is some recent research on the late war operations of the RSI boats, while I usually find RSI history depressing (and Borghese's command is a very touchy subject to say the least as the RSI X MAS was essentially an anti-partisan unit) the late war in the Adriatic makes for interesting reading.

 

Most ships in trans-Atlantic convoys docked at Liverpool or other western ports. Early in the war a portion of some HX convoys, designated HXA, was routed through the Channel, but this was discontinued after the Germans occupied the French coast. Channel convoys mainly comprised the same ships which had been in coastal trade in peacetime or naval shipping like the LSTs involved in Exercise Tiger.

 

the author said to me himself through email that the Osprey title was much too limited in scope, problem though is he did not do all his homework. I appreciated him signing a copy for me released before publication. one should consider seriously the English translation of Hans Frank title " S-Boats".
As ToS said there is nothing really in English covering this portion of the sea-war in specifics unless you go deeper to unit level history web-sites but Hans's book comes close as you are going to get, maps are a bit hard to understand but a wonderful addition. now will say there is a new English book due out on the S-Boots but how far it will cover operations is questionable from the Allied perspective.

and yes the destroyer from late 44 till wars end was a larger threat plus the threat initially of operational starts with RAF coastal command all over the S-Boot Flottilles queuing in their positions as almost leaving their harbors.

 

for a little more substance to this thread. S-Boot Fahne captured by members of Destroyer Garth after S-94 and S-128 collided on February 23, 1944........

View attachment 16148

 

Hey guys,I've been looking about on different sites,and I found a photo in the coastal heritage trust,which shows what appears to be radar onboard a fairimile D,it's on google too.Have a look see.Cheers,Lee.

 

I'd go with an s-boat. They are very fast, stable gun platforms in the roughest of seas, you can strap alot of armaments aboard without losing performance and they don't burn when hit, unlike the Allied MTB's.

 

Hey guys,did any M.T.B's have or trial Aero engines.? Thanks,Lee.

 

From pretty much all I've read the S-boats were the best of their type in the war. Now late war a US or British boat with radar and such might be better but the combination of hull, powerplant, and size gave the S-boats a pretty clear edge early and indeed for the whole war if you don't take into account add on's such as mentioned above.

 

As I understand it, most of the Allied PTs, MTBs, etc. used Packard gasoline/petrol engines derived from an aircraft engine. IIRC the PTs used 100-octane aviation fuel. The German S-boote/R-boote were diesel, as you might expect.

 

I'm no expert, but I'd have to go with the German boats....

 

That's right. Some sources say that they were Packard Merlins, but that isn't correct. They were Packard 4M-2500s which were based on the older Packard Liberty airplane engine.

http://www.ptboats.org/20-01-05-ptboat-008.html

 

If you are interested in US PT boats I strongly recomend:
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/CloseQuarters/
And here's a list of them all:
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ships/ships-pt.html

 

the S-Boats became equipped with Berlin S radar devices in late 1944 and they also had radar detecting equipment for homing on ships using radar.

 

One indication of how good the S-Boote where is that Lurssen was still building something very similar long after the war, the French La Combattante that formed the mainstay of the Israeli navy until recently were Lurssen hulls.

 

regarding weaponry and armor, I personally would prefer the one with the better armor and weaponry. Speed is helpful, but armor and weaponry are big as well. Were S-Boats bigger than the MTB's or were they about the same size?