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Paul Weidner (Tenth Army, XXIV Corps)

Discussion in 'Information Requests' started by JoshArterburn, Jul 30, 2013.

  1. JoshArterburn

    JoshArterburn Member

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    Hello everyone! It’s been a while since I’ve posted here. After learning about my grandpa and his brother I became interested in collecting WWII era items. Specifically US Army and USAAF dress uniforms, also more recently M1 helmets. So I have been spending most of my time on the Usmilitaria forum. It was there that I acquired the uniform posted below. It’s not named, but the person I got it from attributed it to Paul Weidner 06884286. I looked up the number in the NARA enlistment records, and got 2 hits. He enlisted in the Army in 1939, and again in the Air Corp in 1945.

    I know what all the insignia are. The DUI’s prior to 1940 were the insignia for the 517th Air Defense Artillery. In 1940 the 517th became the 78th Coast Artillery Regiment. The 78th participated in the Aleutian campaign taking part in the initial landings on the island of Attu. During this time the unit was attached to the 7th Infantry Division. In February of 1944 the 78th was disbanded. Is it common to find DUI’s attached to uniform, for units that were disbanded well before the man was discharged?

    From looking at the insignias and ribbons my guess for the summary of his service is that he was with the 78th during the Aleutian campaign. Then in February of 44 after the 78th was disbanded, he was transferred to the XXIV Corps. Taking part in the invasion of Leyte on October 20, 1944 as evidenced by the Philippines Liberation Ribbon w/ 2 stars. According to what I have read the XXIV Corps then took part in the invasion of Okinawa on April 1, 1945.

    Ok now for a few questions. I know that the 7th Infantry was under the command of the XXIV Corps during both the battles of Leyte and Okinawa. Also like I mentioned before. The 78th was a part of the 7th when it was active. So do you think he stayed with the 7th Infantry the whole time? Also it seems as if he made 3 amphibious landings, yet there is no arrowhead on the campaign ribbon. Does that seem odd to anyone else? Or is it something that vets weren’t to worried about attaching?

    Also I know its a long shot, but If at all possible I was hoping to learn the unit he was with after the 78th was disbanded. Any info you can provide is greatly appreciated.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
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  2. TD-Tommy776

    TD-Tommy776 Man of Constant Sorrow

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    Regarding the arrowhead device (or lack thereof), here is what Wikipedia has:

    I believe this to be fairly accurate, which one cannot take for granted with the Wiki. It is not enough to have made an amphibious landing. It has to be credited as an assault landing. His separation papers would likely make note of it. If you do a bit of research, you might also be able to find out of the unit he was assigned to was or would have been given assault credit.
     
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  3. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Speculating here.

    The 78th CA Regiment (Antiaircraft) (Semimobile) was broken into parts:
    HHB redesignated HHB 78th AAA Group
    1st Battalion -> 78th AAA Gun Bn
    2nd Battalion -> 591st AAA Autoweapons Bn
    3rd Battalion -> 248th AAA Searchlight Bn

    It is possible that he remained with either the Hq or AAA gun battalion numbered "78." They may have been authorized to wear the DUI of the disbanded 78th CA Regiment. You would have to do some research on that.

    If he remained with any of the battalions formed from the original regiment, I do not see how he would have been a part of any of the assault echelons.

    Very nice looking coat you have. You should be proud.
     
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  4. JoshArterburn

    JoshArterburn Member

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    Ok, Thank you! That makes sense, I missunderstood the criteria for the arrowhead.

    Thank you! Sadly The moths have had a hay day with this thing, but I am still happy to have it in the collection.

    I hadn’t considered him being in one of the parts of the 78th cause it didn’t fit. As you may have noticed from my signature. My grandpa was with the 78th, so I am somewhat familiar with those other units. The 591st is the unit my grandfather ended up in. They stayed on Attu till December of 1944, so that doesn’t really fit. The 248th is kind of a mystery I haven’t found much info on them. And the 78th Gun Bn did see combat after it was created. However that was not till 1950 during the Korean conflict. I have not found a connection with any of these units and the Leyte operations.

    I think you may be close with your speculation. It didn’t dawn on me till after I read your comment, but I wonder if the 78th Gun Bn was where he ended up after he left the XXIV Corps and before he was discharged. But I have no idea if the 78th Gun Bn used the same DUI.

    Also if he was not a part of the Aleutian campaign. What do you think the 3rd star on the campaign ribbon could be for?
     
  5. JoshArterburn

    JoshArterburn Member

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  6. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    I want to make sure we are talking about the same thing when speaking of the "78th" after its dissolution. Are you referring to the 78th AAA Batt. or the 78th Group HHB? The reason I ask is have you found where the 78th AAA Group was after the regiment was broken up? I'm talking about the headquarters and headquarter battalion, not the gun and searchlight battalions. "Groups" controlled varying numbers of firing battalions, mostly in an administrative function. Speculating again, the "group" (HHB only) could have gone to XXIV Corps, with the 591st as on of its subordinate units. I am wondering if the 591st wore the DUI of the 78th AAA Group, formerly the 78th CA Regiment, because they were under the 78th Group administratively?

    As an aside on the authorization of DUI to units as the army composition changed: The 30th Cavalry Reconnaissance Troop (Mechanized) of the 30th ID wore the DUI of a former infantry brigagde headquarters company. They changed the background color on the insignia from white to yellow when it swithed from infantry to cavalry.
     
  7. JoshArterburn

    JoshArterburn Member

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    .

    Yeah I was talking about the Gun Bn. I haven’t found any info on the 78th Group HHB . However I was able to find a list of the units that took part in the Leyte invasion, but there is no mention of the 78th Group HHB.

    I have a pretty good idea of what happened to all 3 of the battalions in the 78th AAA Group, but in all the searching I have done. There has been no mention of what happened to the headquarters and headquarter battalion.


    78th Anti Aircraft Artillery Gun Battalion​
    .

    591st AAA Automatic-Weapons Battalion​
    .

    248th AAA Searchlight Bn​
    .

    After the regiments were broken up. Was it more common for the men to be assigned to one of the resulting battalions? Or was it common for them to be transferred to a different organization?
     
  8. Earthican

    Earthican Member

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    According to Stanton:
    78th AA Group .... inactivated 3 Feb 1944 at Camp Earle Alaska.

    According to Wiki:
    XXIV Corps was activated at Fort Shafter, Hawaii, on 8 April 1944...

    The alignment of those dates holds open the possibly he went from Alaska to Hawaii. Though they are probably not in the same theater and the distance adds another barrier. Still a possibility.(EDIT: Seems a better possibility than one of the battalions, which all returned to the continental US)

    XXIV Corps artillery units (not Corps HQ) participated in the Saipan/Guam operations, so that might be the third star.


    I also noted the collar brass is Field Artillery.
     
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  9. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    I cannot answer that with any degree of certainty. I would suspect that since the various units were "redesignated" as another unit, that the men were told one day that they are now x Battalion. Men could have been shuffled around and/ or transferrred to comply with changing TO&Es
     
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  10. JoshArterburn

    JoshArterburn Member

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    Thank you so much for this info.

    When I first read your response I was really confused, but after hitting Google for a few hours. I think I may have found something interesting. I had no Idea that the XXIV Corps Artillery was separated from the rest of the XXIV Corps at one point. So before when I was searching for Info I was only searching “XXIV Corps”. Once I read your comment I searched “XXIV Corps Artillery” which lead me to some amazing info.

    Your right that the XXIV Corps Artillery participated in the Saipan campaign. However I found out that 2 XXIV Corps Artillery battalions were not present at Saipan, and instead took part in the Leyte invasion.

    This quote by Major General John Hodge, was made upon the departure of XXIV Corps after the Leyte campaign.
    .
    .
    Since we know from the Philippines Liberation Ribbon w/ 2 stars that Paul took part in the invasion of Leyte, this was a very promising revelation. I continued to search and found these about supporting artillery on Leyte.
    .
    .
    The first paragraph lists the USMC and XXIV Corps Artillery battalions that took part in the Leyte landings. The part about the 226th Field Artillery Battalion being formed from former coast artillery units really interested me. Cause that would explain the coast artillery DUI’s and field artillery branch disc.

    I would be happy to get your opinion if I am on the right track or not.
    .

    .
    Alright, Thank you! This can all be really confusing, so I’m very grateful for all the explanations you guys have provided.
     
  11. Earthican

    Earthican Member

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    Oh I get it now. I forgot we expect he has one star for the Aleutians. So the 226th Field Artillery Bn adds two stars for Leyte and Ryukyus.

    That realization made me check Stanton for XXIV Corps Artillery which only lists Leyte and Ryukyus. Why they are listed in the order of battle for Saipan must be a quirk of history.

    If those units don't pan-out, you can also check the AA battalions of XXIV Corps.


    Stanton lists the 226th FAB as activated 1 Sep 1942 in Hawaii from the 2d Bn 105th FA (NY NG). He usually indicates when FA changes weapons so they may have been a 155mm Gun outfit from that date.

    There is this thread on the 226th FAB:
    http://www.ww2f.com/topic/13038-info-on-the-226th-fa-in-leyte/


    In Europe it seems only Corps headquarters personal wore the Corps patch; that is why I am leaning that way, but who knows.

    Excellent research on your part!!!
     
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  12. JoshArterburn

    JoshArterburn Member

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    Thank you very much!

    I am assuming at this point that he was involved in the Aleutian campaign with the 78th Coast Artillery Regiment. However there is the possibility that he was moved to one of the 78th AAA group battalions, when he was sent back to the states for discharge. But considering he enlisted in 1939, and the Leyte operation didn’t start till October of 1944. It seems logical that he would have seen action sooner then that.

    I believe I mentioned it before, but the DUI’s have left a very noticeable indentation in the material of the uniform. Indicating they have been attached for quite some time. I am convinced they were put on by Paul himself I just need to figure out when that was. If he did get the DUI’s while he was the 78th CA Rg, would he have been allowed to wear them after being transferred to a different unit?
     
  13. Earthican

    Earthican Member

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    A unit would not allow a soldier to wear the DUI from another unit. Such a violation would be easy to spot and not tolerated, particularly in a dress uniform inspection.

    Having said that, I often get the impression that once a unit entered an active theater they rarely used the dress uniform, particularly the service coat. Packed in their duffel bag, which were handled by the unit trains, they were often lost, stolen or damaged.

    Particularly in the Pacific, where few units performed occupation duty, it was common to get a new dress uniform upon return to Camp Stoneman, California. The soldier wore this uniform to get to his regional separation center and then home. These uniforms could lack unit specific insignia and sometimes ribbons.

    Under these conditions it would be difficult to enforce uniform discipline. It's probable many soldiers took liberties here, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt and consider he added the DUI when he stored the uniform after the war.

    If he had his original DUI he might not have lost his original service coat but hard to say what condition that wool coat was in after three years in the Pacific.

    This is all speculation in order to find possible units and check their rosters (if available) or obtain his discharge document.

    Good Luck!!
     
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  14. JoshArterburn

    JoshArterburn Member

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    Thank you for the explanation! I would say since it has the Tenth Army/XXIV Corps patches sewn on, and the ruptured duck. That the DUI’s would have been added post war, like you said.

    Also I was so focused on the rest of the insignia, I completely disregarded the overseas stripes on the sleeve. There are 4, showing he served overseas for 2 years. So if you go from May 11, 1943, the start of the Aleutian campaign, to September of 1945 when the XXIV Corps was sent to Korea for occupation duty. It equals 2 years 4 months, we know he was discharged before November 15, 1945, cause that is the day he enlisted in the Air Corp. Meaning that 3rd star had to be earned before Leyte. Cause from the invasion of the Philippines on October 20, 1944, to occupation duty in September, 1945 isn’t even a year.

    I joined the Facebook group that was discussed in the thread you linked me to. I’m going to post there and see if any of them have access to a roster of the 226th. Other then that I think I may have gone as far as I can without a discharge document. I have all the info I need for the researcher to find it. I just hope it wasn’t lost in the fire.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. Earthican

    Earthican Member

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    If you know his home town, the other option for finding his discharge document is to check with the local county records office. Veterans were told to have their discharge document registered. Some county clerks allow non-relatives to access these documents given the some 70 years. A genealogy club or service in the area might help you here.
    Best wishes.
     
  16. JoshArterburn

    JoshArterburn Member

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    I know he was born in Baltimore, Maryland, but he lived and died in Florida. Should I check the recorders office from were he was born, or where he lived after he was discharged? The obituary I have for him lists a funeral home. Do you think I would have better luck contacting them for a copy? I know the funeral home that did my granpa's funeral had a copy of his discharge.
     
  17. Earthican

    Earthican Member

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    I would say Baltimore is where he grew-up and likely returned to immediately after the war -- at least briefly. It's probably a long shot given how quickly he re-enlisted in Florida. If a veteran was going to follow the Army advice to have the document registered, they would normally do it within the first year after their return home.

    And you want the discharge document from his wartime enlistment. If he had a full military career there will be more discharge documents in existence. The funeral home might have a copy of his last discharge document but I doubt they would allow anyone to see it.


    I tried searching for the practices in Maryland and only found this page for Montgomery County (wherever that is).
    http://www6.montgomerycountymd.gov/cibtmpl.asp?url=/Content/CircuitCourt/Court/LicenseDepartment/Military_Discharge_Recording.asp


     

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