Polish Army in WW2

1/4 r of the Luftwaffe lost.........where do you come up with this Polak ?

I think this is totally bogus bud

Erich

 

And as for Monte Cassino....

 

I don't want to underrate the brave Polish soldiers who took the monastery… but if they achieved to take it, it was because the strategic and tactical aspects of the battle, not because they were any better than the Kiwis, Tommies, Indians, G. I.s or Free Poilus who failed.

 

I, in turn, I'm glad to see Goebbel's propaganda has lost its effect…

According to www.achtungpanzer.com '[the]Germans lost some 993 to 1.000 armoured fighting vehicles (mainly destroyed by anti-tank guns)'. Germany deployed 3.100 tanks. Your figure is accurate, considering that 'armoured fighting vehicles are not necessarily tanks'. The cipher must have been indeed 1/5 of the total.

However, those number of complete tank-losses was approximately 221, which is 7,1% of the gran total.

Now, considering that the next German offensive took place in May 1940, seven months later and the then-good capacity of repair-shops, even the awkward German war machine could easily repair those permanent losses.

The Germans lost '697 to 1.300 airplanes (damaged and destroyed)' out of 4.333 planes. It is a quarter indeed, but the ciphers differ too much and again, those losses were not all permanent and were soon replaced. T

This is good or bad? The important thing is that Poland lost crucial air supremacy in the first 24 ours thanks to its unpreparedness and the element of surprise.

Poland indeed delayed its mobilisation to August 31st 1939 at 11.00. BUT by September 1st 13 active divisions had not yet not even started their concentration march, let alone frontline deployment. The 9 reserve divisions were, of course, not even near to concentrate. Thus given the German surprise, tactics and the awkward Polish command system…

Why are the French and British to be blamed for Poland's own serious failures of mobilisation structure and strategic deployment and command?

False, as stated in another thread: in September 1st 1939 Army Group 'C' under colonel-general Wilhelm von Leeb, which defended the front between Basilee and Aachen, had 34 infantry divisions, 11 of which were first line fully-equipped units, plus 2/3 of the 22nd airborne division. However, on September 3rd, after the declaration of war, the OKW transferred 9 infantry divisions to the West, which were in position in the 'Westwall' by September 10th, thus totallising 43 divisions. Against that, by September 10th the French could only oppose 52 infantry, 3 cavalry and 2 motorised divisions. Add to this the favourable terrain, strong German defences and lack of French ammunition stocks (not WWI, half useless ammunition), Belgian neutrality, the fact that the BEF wouldn't be in line before October 10th, etcetera. An offensive against the 'Westwall' could not have been launched before mid-October, two weeks after Poland's complete defeat, and the posibilities of success were actually very few…

Stalin cold-murdering people? That's quite new…

Not that I justify nor disregard these attrocious deaths, but…

How in the world could the Allies publicly condemn their, not good or bad, but most important Ally, who was fighting 2/3 of the German war machine and carrying most of the war's brutal burden?

The battle for France was lost almost before it started, almost by the same reasons as was the battle for Poland. The French were as incompetent as their Polish allies, maybe even more.

The totalitarian Soviet Union, as evil as it could be herself, did most of the job to completely destroy that cursed evilest plague called Nazi Germany, and it prevented Germany from physically annihilating the entire Jewish and Slavic peoples of Europe, even at the cost of 45 years of tiranny (a 'light' tiranny, in comparisson to Nazi rule), whether we like it or not.

 

True Fried, the Fallshirmjäger although in limited numbers was still handling out to any of the Allies including the Poles climbing up the hump until they slowly retreated out during the night to form a secondary position. I think we have another Monte Cassino experten who could share some true light to this drama if he logs on. Also the Poles were not the sole recipients of Allied bombing for the Allied forces.

E ~

 

Fried the true figures of lost Luftwaffe a/c to Polish combat actions is not correcet by any means..........I'll dig it up soon as I have copies from Freiburg. there were so many landing accidents you could not believe it and dead head starts causing belly landings. these were also written off but cannot be given credit to Polish sources as a claimed victory.

 

Thanks, Erich. I was expecting you to bring more accurate figures as to Luftwaffe losses in Poland. According to what I got, they numbered indeed almost a whole quarter of the Luftwaffe's aircraft, however, I did suspect most of these air-losses, completely opposite to armour-losses, were not caused by direct enemy action.

The Polish air force was reduced to almost nothing in the first days and the Poles didn't have a great supply of AA armament.

 

According to Kennedy in The German Campaign in Poland (1939) the Germans lost the following:

8,082 KIA
27,278 WIA
5,029 missing

Tank losses were stated in a Heerswaffenamt report as 89 Pz I, 83 Pz II, 26 Pz III and, 19 Pz IV. No figure for Pz 35 and 38t was given but, it is likely similar to that for the Pz III.

German aircraft losses are stated to have been slightly over 400 aircraft from all causes. From The Era of the Gulls: Chronicles of the Pulawski Fighter Line in Air Enthusiast magazine #28, London 1985 the Polish had a total of 159 Pzl 7a, 11a and, 11c aircraft on 4 September 1939 available.
All were lost or captured during the fighting. The Luftwaffe reported 285 aircraft lost to enemy action during the 36 day Poland campaign. Polish fighters were credited with 126 confirmed kills and 10 probables during that period. Of course, in both cases the true figure is probably different.
In all likelihood the Germans lost about 400 aircraft to all causes, combat and non-combat including write-offs due to battle damage etc. The Poles shot down in aerial combat somewhere between 75 and 100 most likely.

On the whole, it is a credible performance but nothing outstanding. Faced with overwhelming odds and poor equipment the Poles put on a credible fight.

 

Ha! I knew I would stir people up with this

Yes, it is Poland's fault and France and Britain were right to do as they did. (By the way, the last was sarcasm)

Well then mr know it all, tell us, with your great knowledge of the world, about these strategic and tactical aspects.

This says everything about you. You believe you know next to everything, but I can tell you that you are only deluding yourself. You think the nazis were bad? The soviets were the worst murderers who ever lived. Your b.s. of "light tyrrany" ha! While Germany was getting millions from the Marshall Plan, Poland was getting mass arrests and executions and torture to match. The nazi pigs murdered in an efficient orderly manner. The soviets caused chaos. Some "light tyrrany" indeed! You know how to talk a lot and try to sound so very knowledgeable, but you don't know the first thing about true war. It is one thing to sit comfortably in a relatively rich country and talk about other's history like you caused it, but let me tell you, living under communism wasn't simply light tyrrany.

 

Dowding, it is true, initially thought that the morale among the Poles ( and others, don't forget that there were Dutch, French, Czechs etc all wanting to be assimilated into fighting squadrons ) would have suffered as a result of defeat. In this, he was wrong.

The more intractable problem was the Poles' almost complete ignorance of the English language ; thought to be a serious handicap as Fighter Command's direction system relied on ground-to-air R/T communication.

This was the main practical concern, but I agree that it is far more comforting to hold the 'national prejudice' myth dear - those English ! How typical !

 

That is certainly true. On the other hand, the question is if there would any significant number of Poles left after 45 years of Nazi tyranny, to estimate the relative harshness of their rulers.

I seriosuly doubt it.

 

Well... we seem to have stirred up a hornets nest...

Excellent!

While I have always had a 'soft spot' for Polish troops, there are a few things to say...

Monte Cassino - The Third Battle that began on 11th May was an attack mounted by Polish troops from the north AND French troops from the south. A Polish patrol did seize the Abbey ruins but the Fallschirmjager had evacuated and it was only occupied by wounded under the care of a medical officer. On other sectors of Cassino the FJ continued to fight hard and where attacks made ground they were repulsed by the Pioneer Battalion, often in close cmbat. The Abbey was taken because the Germans, PULLED OUT. Once the overall strategic situation meant that the position was untenable the FJ retreated. To say the Poles took Monte Cassino is overstating their actions somewhat. The reason it was taken was because the GErmans left it, not due to anything else. If it had been Brits going up that day the result would have been the same. I think your statement belittles the efforts and lives of others in the fighting at Monte Cassino and you understandably play down the superb fighting action conducted by the FJ. My Grandfathers unit was deployed at Monte Cassino, and left many of their men on those hills.

Finally with regards to atrocities, the Poles can not be excluded in this. During the Normandy campaign capture by a Polish unit was not a pleasent prospect for German troops. Many, especially Waffen-SS, were executed. The reasons for this are understandable but this by no-means allows these actions. As always all nations have their share of war crimes.

 

Thanks for the cipher, T. A. Now we find out that 25% (a quarter) is way too high. The Luftwaffe lost 10% of its numbers during the Polish campaign.

Your posts also say everything about you and the word 'cheauvinist' comes to my mind, but I'll keep my mouth shut.

False. The Nazis murdered 6 million Poles and, by starting and fighting WWII, they provoked another 50 million deaths.

Indeed it was very unfair, and you should read what has been said in the Dresden thread, where I clearly said that Germany actually paid too little a price, considering what she did.

What-the-hell is this suppossed to mean? A death by poisonous gas is better than someone shot in the head?

On the contrary: the very concept of industrialised 'clean' and 'efficient' killing is even worse, precisely because it is 'civilised' and more effective: it has the capacity to annihilate entire populations and turn them into smoke. And had it not been for the Red Army, the Polish People would have became ashes, for they were next on the Untermenschen list…

Tiranny is tiranny, yes. But there are great differences in tyrannies and they must be put in context first, before generalising.

One thing is an autoritharian régime and a very different one is a totalitarian one. The latter is the fisrt in its most extreme and most brutal face.

Only two true totalitarian States have existed in the long Human History: Nazi Germany and the Stalinist USSR.

Poland suffered 45 years of communist autoritharian rule, whose main aim was to impose and then mantain a communist economical and political system. It was a police State, a puppet government controlled by Moscow, yes.
But its ultimate aim was NOT the complete exterminmation of the Polish nation.

The Nazi totalitarian rule's main aim was the absolute destruction of Poland, geographically, politically, economically, culturally and demographically. Another 6 years of Nazi rule and nowadays there would be no Polish people AT ALL. During the 45 years of communist rule, Poland remained one in territory, culture and population. The régime then collapsed by its own weight and Poland re-gained its freedom.

This tyranny was the price Poland had to pay for its very existance and it was, also, product of its long history of conflicts with Russia.

Not to mention Polish pogroms against Polish Jews, before and after WWII…

 

False?
so in other words, over 60million<21 million?
Check your math.

Also, before you say "this is what actually happened in Poland..." remind yourself that I am Polish, and lived under communism. You can profess your "great knowledge" of what happened in Poland to your friends, and they may believe you, but don't try to tell me that you know better than me what happened in my life, and what happened in the lives of my family. You just don't.

 

Dont ya just hate it when ya post gets ignored...

Polak z Polski,

While none of us disagree that Communism in Poland was bloody awful and the Poles had a hard time of it, some of your statements, take Monte Cassino for example, are just not accurate.

Sorry, but they aint...

 

Frankly, this discussion here is not about your life. YOU came here claiming Soviet rule was much worse than Nazi rule.

Were you put in a concentration camps? Force-laboured to death? Gassed? Did the Soviets try to stitch anyone together in a failed attempt to create artificial conjoined twins? Shot for sport? Can you count further than to 500 (as Himmler suggested an absolute maximum for the education of Poles)? Are all priests, politicians, teachers and writers dead? Are Russians living on all Polish lands? Is the Polish nation eradicated?

I could go on. My point is that you seem somewhat uneducated about what your ancestors went through during Nazi rule, and what they were being prepared for during the coming years, had the Soviets not shown up, cruel as they were.

 

'Red Baron' errs in a couple of minor aspects. The Polish II Corps went into action on 12 May 1944 in the Fourth Battle of Monte Cassino. He says, "A Polish patrol did seize the Abbey ruins but the Fallschirmjager had evacuated and it was only occupied by wounded under the care of a medical officer." He may have relied only on the German Supreme Command announcement of 19 May 1944, "Cassino, which the Anglo-Americans had vainly assaulted with powerful forces for months, was evacuated last night without a fight, in favour of a fall-back line further to the rear" ('The Battle for Cassino', Piekalkiewicz, p. 155). That German unit is elsewhere identified as a weakened 1st Battalion, 3rd Parachute Regiment.

'Red Baron' then goes on to suggest, "To say the Poles took Monte Cassino is overstating their actions somewhat. The reason it was taken was because the GErmans(sic) left it, not due to anything else."

This is is an canard that must not remain unanswered. In the period 12-18 May the Polish II Corps, in numerous assaults, had "to sacrifice 4199 men" ('The Battle for Cassino', Piekalkiewicz, p. 158) or "almost 4,000 casualties" ('The Battle for Italy', Jackson, p. 236).

After brutal opposition over a period of four months, at 0950 hours, 18th May 1944, the 12th Podolski Lancers raised a make-shift brigade standard on the ruins of the Abbey of Monte Cassino to a bugler's sounding of the 'Hejnal'. Only on that one day was there no serious opposition.

Ask that 4000 Polish and many,many more Allied ghosts of Cassino forgive you, and then go back to your war games.

 

I think you misread my meaning.

My point was that it was NOT JUST the Poles who suffered at Monte Cassino. My Grandfather took a bullet that left him paralysed on the those hills.

[ 24. February 2005, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: Ron ]

 

easy there Red.

Without doubt the Fallshirmjägern were well entrenched even taking enormous casualties due to bombing and especially Allied artillery with Shrapnel flying in all directions. the taking of Monte Cassino and I have followed this battle from time to time for almost 40 years is one of the most insane undertaking by the Allied supreme command. No doubt I will get chastized for saying that but I have never understood why this was not just bypassed to the north from the west and the east, surrounded and then taken out as need be. Foolish command decisions lost way too many mixed Allied forces, Aussie, Indian, Pole, US, British.........you name it what a waste, and what a waste for German infantrie, mountain and finally airborne to defend this big hunk of rock.
I have to say for a WW 2 battle plan the German did ingeniously sow mine field after mine field, some amongst brush and barbed wire defenses, but I do not have to tell you that. They had the time and they made it work.........

E ~

 

Where did you get the second cipher? The bloody Germans directly or inderictly killed well over 50 million people in bloody WWII, and the way they killed many of those millions has no paralell at all in Human History.

In the other hand, the millions starved, worked-to-death, deported or assassinated by Stalin (totalitarian communism) were the same kind of genocide done by all Russian dictators, but in a far larger scale. (And this does not justify nor lessen the extent or the repulsiveness of such attrocities).

A dictatorship, living in a police State is never agreeable, never good and always as immoral. However, you seem to forget the way your grandparents and their generation were facing absolute slavery and ultimate extinction under Nazi rule. It was Heinrich Himmler, not Lavrientí Biéria, the one who wanted "to behead the Polish population: kill all intellectuals, bureaucrats, teachers, scientists, everyone with a university title, so they become a stupid mass of slaves". (Until the Germans had won the war, of course, because then 30 million Poles lost all their very little value and most follow the Jews into Auschwitz).

Again, the 45 years of communist autoritharian régime was the product of the outcome of the war, which could NOT at all be decided or influenced by the Western Allies.

The Russians, Ukrainians and Bielorrussians were not very gentile with the Poles indeed. But perhaps hundreds of years of mutual hatred and many wars had more to do with it rather than the vile treachery by the Yanks and Brits, don't you think?

Indeed it was. The Germans were right to defend it, though. The Cassino position (not the abbey itself) dominated the entire Liri valley and the main western motorway to Rome. The Allies, however, played their cards all in the wrong way, almost absolutely thanks to that military genious, Mark 'G. I. killer' Clark. Alexander should be blamed for not sacking him as well, even if he would have taken a lot of FLAK by the press…