Poland - a paradise for II WW maniacs

Yes guys. Here, in Poland, you've got many important threads focused.I mean the following:
-the beginning of war,
the biggest resistance movement(polish Home Army)
- the bigest uprising in the history of WWII(Warsow uprising 1944)
- the biggest ghettos for Jews (Warsow,Łódź,Kraków)
- the biggest Jewish ghetto uprising (warsow 1943)
- the biggest, imposing Hitler's and Wehrmacht Headquaters( Gierłoż-Wolfshanze and Mamerki nearby)
- the biggest concentration camps (Auschvitz,Majdanek etc,etc.
- the biggest execution sites of civilians (Palmiry etc.)
- the most secret Nazi factories and firing grounds (Książ,Police,Wolin, Orzysz and many others)
- the biggest net of Nazi bunkers (Międzyrzecki Rejon Umocniony, Wał Pomorski etc)
- huge military operations (Berlin 1945)
- total collapse of German warmachine (from Vistula river on)
- finally, the biggest mystery o IIWW (RIESE complex). After 60 years actually nothing is known about the purpose of it. 10 times more concrete and money was put in it than in Gierłoż!

You can find excellent books with photograps on all above topics in polish bookshops and librarys.
The problem is that they are written in damned polish language. That's why it is so hard to break through to the world. One more advantage, many war witnesses and veterans are still alive, when you have luck you may have exciting chat with older people during train or bus journey.
What do you think of that all?

 

yes, Ralf, you have quite alot of "interesting" nazi buildings etc over there.

Did some digging on the Riese complex a year back. originally in the Russian front interesting details part:

----------
Hitler´s biggest HQ bunker- and never used....

Riese-the Giant

http://www.fhquriese.mynetcologne.de/riese_aktuell.htm

When forced laborers began work in 1943, the war was already beginning to turn as the allies pushed the German army out of North Africa and the Soviet Union. With bombing raids beginning in Germany, Hitler planned to move his headquarters east to Poland. Near Wroclaw he began the fantastical project, at the cost of 150 million Reichsmarks.

Few in the Reich knew what the maniacal Nazi leader had in store for the planned 200 square kilometer (49,421 acres) complex of underground tunnels.

"The entire Reich leadership was supposed to be lodged there, round 25,000 people," said Jürgen Heckenthaler, a historian who studied the project. "There are six or seven separate underground lairs."

http://www.warsawvoice.pl/view/2878

There is proof of this in the memoirs of both the OT head, Albert Speer, the Reich's chief architect and minister of armaments, and Hitler's adjutant Nicolaus von Below, who wrote: "The plans that we kept criticizing in those months [early 1944] included the construction of a huge new Headquarters for the Führer in Silesia, near Waldenburg [today's Wałbrzych, near where the facilities were located], which was also to include Fürstenstein Castle [today's Książ Castle] within the estate of the von Pless princes. Hitler defended his orders and commanded that construction continue with the use of concentration camp prisoners managed by Speer. During the year, I visited this facility twice and each time had the strong impression that I wouldn't see its completion. I tried to inspire Speer to somehow influence Hitler to give the order that the project be stopped. Speer said that was impossible. The extravagant work continued-at a time when every tonne of concrete and steel was so urgently needed elsewhere." ( von Below, memoirs )

At a briefing on June 20, 1944, I informed the führer that about 28,000 laborers were working at the time on expanding his headquarters. The construction of the bunkers in Kętrzyn [Hitler's quarters in the then East Prussia, known as the Wolf's Lair] cost 36 million marks, the bunkers in Pullach, which ensured Hitler's safety when he was in Munich-13 million marks, and the Riese bunker complex near Bad Charlottenbrunn [today's Jedlina Zdrój near Wałbrzych]-150 million marks. These construction projects required 257,000 cubic meters of steel-reinforced concrete, 213,000 cubic meters of tunnels [today about 97,000 cubic meters of tunnels are known, which means that if we assume the construction was close to completion, over a half of the underground galleries and chambers have yet to be discovered], 58 km of roads with six bridges, and 100 km of pipelines. For the Riese project alone, more concrete was used than was earmarked in 1944 for the whole population for the construction of air-raid shelters ... The headquarters was never finished, and in early March 1945, soon before the Red Army took over Silesia, SS bomb squads blew the whole thing up." (Albert Speer )

http://www.wuestewaltersdorf.de/de/Riese-Plaene.htm

http://mitglied.lycos.de/Kundschafter/Projekt%20Riese.htm

 

Kai,
As most people now agree it was not intended to be Hitler's headquaters at all. 90 % of it is still unknown, because it's hidden deep under rock debris. Can you imagine that many people touching this subject were kidnapped and killed. And all that would happen untill recently (f.e.W.Siorek)- many,many years after war. All that makes the whole thing even more strange.

 

I had a business connection a few years ago with the Polish Tourist Office in London.

They were very enthusiastic indeed about the bunkers and tried very hard to sell me on the idea of a holiday to visit the WWII sites ( alas, my wife wasn't so enthusiastic..... )

 

Have always wanted to visit Poland… thanks for posting more reasons to visit it, Ralf!

I just don't agree wih this:

In terms of numbers and combat effectiveness (though it was far better supplied by the Allies) the NOV i POJ (Narodnooslobodilaka vojska i partizanski odredi Jugoslavije, People's Liberation Army and Partisan detachments of Yugoslavia, was the biggest.

 

Hi,
Polish resistance was an underground state with state's institutions.Not only military movement.
But I don't argue with you, my knowledge about Yugoslavia is weak.
I don't know exactly the number of Yugo partisan army. As I remember there was quite a lot hostility and clashes inside among them.
Undoubtly Serbs are excellent soldiers, I wouldn't like to fight against them. By the way, do you know they have the same national anthem (music)like Poland? Their's is played just a little bit slower.

 

I simply love 'Mazurek Dabrowskiego'. It is a very beautiful anthem indeed!

Men and women serving in the NOV i POJ

1941: 80.000
1942: 150.000
mid-1943: 230.000
late-1943: 320.000
late-1944: 650.000

And was involved in very large, brutal and influential operations:

Fatal casualties taken by the NOV i POJ (1941-1945): 305.672.

Fatal casualties taken by the German Armed Forced in anti-partisan warfare against NOV i POJ (1941-1945): 103.196.

Total fatal casualties suffered by all sides in the Balkan campaigns: 1.500.000.

To fight Tito the Germans recquired an entire Army Group, almost 20 full-strenght and full-equipped divisions, some even being élite mountain divisions.

The NOV i POJ was also responsible for the liberation of Belgrade and many other cities, not to mention that its very presence tied up to the Balkans some 500.000 Axis troops at the very same time of the Allied invasion of Italy.

From: www.en.wikipedia.org and www.vojska.net/ww2/yugoslavia/

This post is not intended to disregard the bravery and importance of the Polish Home Army, just to say that there was some other bigger Partisan Army.

Regards.

 

Good to see you can still be relied upon to point out just because some people shout the loudest, and the most frequent, does not change historical facts Freddy.

No.9

 

Very glad to see you, 9! What a miracle!

Hope you're doing OK.

 

Danke der nachfrage, Freddy.


Salutations to the other august good 'ole boys still hitting the keys.

Like dud coins and flying saucers I'm still around and turn up from time to time. Probably have had a sizeable sojourn from cyberspace, but, have never neglected the history and have made several amazing extended trips to Italy, resulting in an improved understanding of the way things really were.

Hope the singing and teaching are going well. How's the book?

No.9

 

By the way, what's happened to your face ? Since when did you become a sailor ???

No.9

 

Hi No.9 !!! I thought you moved to South Africa so you could be near an operational Lightning.

Someday when I hit the lottery I am going to take a ride on that bird and all the others he gives (sells) rides on. Of course if you get lucky before I do, don't forget your friend in Texas !!

 

Why thank you Tex


No, I didn't go to South Africa, (don't like eating in cafferterias), though the prospect of flying in a Lightning is tempting.

If I ever win the Lottery Jackpot you're very welcome to a trip, though I may only be there to watch. Unless they've made the cockpit bigger to resolve the ejector seat issue, I don't see the old problem would have changed? Not knowing the aviation or Health and Safety rules for South Africa, perhaps they'd let me sign a waiver - would work for me.

But, I'd have to do the near vertical ascent on re-heat, and I don't know if I would hold together???

Hell of a way to go though!


No.9