whats yours????

Not to mention that the Pershing isn't the only tank that was capable of dispatching Tigers and Panthers.

 

FT-17s were used operationally by the French (Battle of France) and the Germans (turrets used in 'West Wall', and some used in Paris, I think).
Other nations (I think Canada, for one) used them for training.

 

Yeah, there was the Comet!

 

The Churchill, the Cromwell, the unbeatable Sherman, the T-34, the JS series, etc etc.

 

True. If infantry can dispatch them then any tank is capable if it gets the right spot. The Hetzer proved able to depatch IS-2s on the odd occassion.

But I think what Ritterkreuz meant was in a fair fight in normal combat conditions. Usually the Tigers and Panthers would have the advantage in these situations against all but the IS-2 (although the Tiger I was by no means outcassed by the IS-2 and in my view was still better than it). The Pershing was the first American tank to counter that situation and be capable of being roughly their equal or even superior (depending on your view) although it STILL would have been vulnerable to the King Tiger's gun at ranges where the Pershing's gun would have been ineffective. But as I said, this confrontation (with the King Tiger) was either rare or non existant.

 

Comets from 3rd Royal Tank Regiment had trouble dealing with a single Tiger I of Gruppe Fehrmann as late as 13th April 1945. It took a flank shot from 60 metres to knock out this Tiger I (number F 02) near Ostenholz after it had destroyed a number of other tanks and vehicles (including 2 Comets). Later on April 19th another single Tiger I of Panzerdivision Clausewitz stopped the advance of 3rd RTR near Sassendorf. Not only then but the same Tiger I did the same on 1st May near Schwarzenbek when it was only knocked out after inflicting more damage on the tanks of 3rd RTR.

Comets rarely met the Tiger I or King Tiger but when they did it seems the Tiger I still gave better than it got.

 

Most of these would have to be lucky to get a Panther or Tiger before it gets them, unless at close ranges or with the element of surprise at their side. The Churchill and Cromwell were never operationally fitted with anything over the 75mm 6pdr-adaptation, which could hardly hope to penetrate 100mm of armour which the German tanks both had in front. From the sides it would be a lucky shot, but possible. Rear is the best shot they have. The T34/85 and the IS1 both had a gun which simply couldn't get the penetration to dispatch these tanks from the front, unless at very short range. So the best options here are the late Sherman (chancy business!) and the IS2 (preferrably at close range, anyways).

 

I haven't studied hundreds of pictures of knocked out Panthers but very few shots of knocked out Tiger Is show actual penetration of either the front glacis or turret suggesting that flank shots were the only real hope.I only know of a few such photos.I would imagine the Panther would be the same and it's well known that NO enemy gun ever penetrated the King Tiger's glacis during WW2. At least there are no descriptions of this and no photos that show it.

 

yes canadians did use them after the great war by puchasing some so did the us russia china poland finland... ect

 

Speaking of penetrating a Panther on the glacis or front of the turret, is everyone familiar with the famous film footage of the Panther in Nancy? This is the one sitting in front of the catherdral that has just knocked out a Sherman, and then one of the new Pershings approaches and fires on the move. One hit apparently happens just before the film rolls, then it gets hit by the 90mm right on the mantlet and bursts into flames. My question is, why weren't they facing toward the Pershing to get the maximum protection from the front glacis instead of facing broadsides with the thinner side armor exposed?

 

well often tere are many reasons fo this 1 because the tank is imoobil for whatever reason and 2 becaus they belive the have the first shot. in most of the tank games i play i find mu self fireing brodsid when im fully aware of this fact and most times i get that shot off but occasonaly im hit with a 88 and killed :kill:

 

on and danyel im sure all thos vc fierfyl crews died watching ther 17pdr rounds bounce off tiger and pather glacies plates

 

Can't say I'm familiar with that footage Sgt Bob. Do you know where/what it is from? Is it available? Thanks.

 

Apart from ARVE varients, the Churchill never went above 75mm, and the Cromwell was firmly a 6pdr gun tank.

 

Just what are you getting at?

 

The Cromwell and Churchill both were never armed with anything over the 75mm gun that was an adapted 6pdr to fit American ammunition. The 6pdr simply wasn't capable of penetrating 100mm of armour at over 500 meters, and neither was the 75mm version of it. On shorter ranges they may have had a chance at dispatching a Tiger from the front but not the Panther, with its phenomenal sloped armour. So while the Cromwell and Churchill were at more than equal terms with the PanzerIV, they couldn't hope to kill a Tiger or a Panther before it got them into sight and hit them, first. The only way was to either hit the Tiger or Panther from the sides or rear, at which point the kill range for the two British tanks was enlarged to about 1000 meters, or to get up close unseen. or of course they could play out their rate of fire, which was a lot higher than that of either German tank, and hope to hit something vulnerable (which often happened). However, in a fair face-to-face fight the Churchill and Cromwell wouldn't stand a chance of killing of either Tiger or Panther.

 

when you said the perishing is the only tank able todispatch tigers and panthers

 

unless yo were joking then in that case im sorry

 

Um, Danyel pointed out that the Pershing was not the only tank capable!

 

schiesse im stuned i didn't see the n't