Tigers and losses at Kursk.

At the start of the Kursk offensive on 5th July 1943 the following units had the following allocation of Tiger Is. Losses are also given.

1. Schwere Panzer Abteilung 503 had 45 Tiger Is. It lost just 7 Tigers totally during the whole of July plus 7 in August.

2. Schwere Panzer Abteilung 505 had 45 Tiger Is. It lost 6 Tigers in July and 12 in August.

3. Grossdeutschland had 15 Tiger Is. It lost 6 in July?(though more likely it was during August that these were lost) and 5 in August.

4. Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler (SS) had 14 Tiger Is. It lost 2 Tigers in July and handed the rest over to Das Reich and Totenkopf in late July.

5. Das Reich (SS) had 14 Tiger Is. It lost 1 Tiger in July and 3 in August.

6. Totenkopf (SS) had 14 Tiger Is. It lost 3 Tigers in July and 1 in August.

All losses include knockouts, self destruction and factory maintainence (canibalization etc).

The above figures go totally against the Soviet claim that 70 Tigers were destroyed on 12th July alone at Prokhorovka. The Germans only had 43 Tigers in total in that entire sector and only one Tiger was totally destroyed on 12th July.

Sources are Tigers In Combat volumes I and II by Wolfgang Schneider.

 

It wouldn't be the first or last time the Soviets came wrong claims. If the number of claimed destroyed Ferdinands on the eastern front were added up, it would far exceed the number manufactured. In addition, a lot of Ferdinands were claimed destroyed on the Eatsren front in 1944 and 1945, despite the fact that (aside from a very limited number in Berlin), the Ferdinand fought exclusively on the western front after in 1944 and 1945.

Christian

 

I know what you mean. Before I knew better I always thought that most of the Ferdinands were destroyed at Kursk. As I mentioned in my thread on the Ferdinands they were very successful defensively in late 1943 and carried on throughout 1944 and into 1945 still knocking out Soviet armour.

Schwere Panzerjager Abteilung 653 still had circa 30 Ferdinands(or Elefants as they were now called after the overhaul) by the summer of 1944. It fought in the west Ukraine/Hungarian border area around this time.

 

One thing that is rarely mentioned was that during the night when there was a pause in fighting, both the Soviets and especially Germans were able to recover some of their AFVs and were able to return them to battlefield conditions shortly. So some of those tanks that were claimed as "destroyed" by the enemy may in fact have been "revived".

 

good god

Good god, of course you are right, none of Tigers were destroyed under prokhorovka, in fact, Germans won the battle, but got bored and turned back. Nor did Germans really lost at Stalingrad. All of the war was won in 1944 when Allies landed in Normandy and liberated Moscow. JFC, do you people actually read anything other than pro german propaganda?

 

Um, have you read every post in this forum?
Because the point you have just made has been made, and agreed, several times before, and usually in a much more civilised manner.

This post is one of a series dedicated to establishing exactly how many Tiger tanks were lost in each theatre. I really am struggling to find any evidence that we are in any way belittling the martial prowess of the Soviet Union. Yes, it is utilising German sources (they kept meticulous records), but if we look at Allied combat claims (US & UK too!) then we destroyed far more Tigers than were ever produced.

 

Re: good god

Read the German war diaries and records. They are correct and the Tiger combat records are now published in very expensive volumes for all to study. In fact, if one was to spend a huge amount of time doing so you could add up all the numbers of destroyed Tigers, when and where and come to the exact figure of the numbers produced. You'll see the figures would tally. The figures the Soviets gave wouldn't. Or did the Germans in reality build around 5,000 Tigers instead of 1800 but only the Soviets were aware of this and they kept it a secret? :lol:

Soviet claims of 70 Tigers destroyed at Prokhorovka are complete nonsense when there wasn't even that number there in the first place.

Of course, Tigers would have been temporarily put out of action or immobilised at Prokhorovaka and other battles during the Kursk offensive but in my initial post I was refering to totally destroyed Tigers which were lost completely.

If you would be so kind as to correct me and give me details of the Tigers that were destroyed by the Soviets including company and unit numbers then I would appreciate it. I'll then contact the relevant people and tell them they were wrong.

You'll find the Tigers that were filmed being kncoked out during these battles by Soviet propaganda film crews were not authentic and were in actual fact faked Tigers. You could even tell by the weird loking gun mantlets. No Tigers ever had those. :lol:

 

Daniel Phelps is the LAST person to be reading pro German propaganda Sarco so I suggest you read some of his previous posts for some perspective. :lol:

 

These are the correct numbers of Tiger losses during Unternehmen Zitadelle

• s.H.Pz.Abt. 503: 4
• s.H.Pz.Abt. 505: 6
• 13. Kp./SS-Pz.Rgt. 1: 1
• 8. Kp./SS-Pz.Rgt. 2: 1
• 8. Kp./SS-Pz.Rgt. 3: 1
• 13. Kp./Pz.Rgt.Großdeutschland: 0

Total: 13
Thomas L. Jentz. 1997. Germany's Tiger Tanks - Tiger I & Tiger II: Combat Tactics, Atglen: Schiffer Publishing Ltd., 175p.

 

How did they lost Kursk battle then?

Out of curiosity, since only 13 of German tanks were lost and all Russian tanks burned to ashes, how "exactly" was the Kursk battle lost by Germany and won by Russians?

I mean other than Russians forging up fake German Tigers burning and making up losses, do you actually ask yourself those questions?

If you would like, I can give you russian statistics that will tell you the exact opposites of what you post.

Must be the black Magic of Russians and stupid Hitler that ordered victorious Tigers and Panthers turn around and haul back to Italy (yeah thats a good one) to defend Duche from evil yanks.

The mere idea of Russians making up fake Tigers to make photos on battlefield is utter and complete insanity. No, really, how do you imagine them doing it? Pitching up tents? Or making cardboard ones?

 

Sarco
The reason why the German forces were withdrawn was because of Operation Husky - the Allied landings in Sicily. Not bcause of the situation on the battlefield of Kursk itself.

The numbers I have given are correct. I have no doubt that you can find Russian statistics which says otherwise, however Russian statistics also show that more Ferdinands were destroyed by Russian forces than there was ever produced - and even at times where no Ferdinands were present at the eastern front.

If you can show me photographs of more than 13 Tigers which have been destroyed at Kursk, then we can talk about it.

 

You actually..

believe it yourself? Tanks were pulled from Kursk to go over to Sicily? Do you understand what kind of distances we are talking about? By the time they would have made it, it was almost easier to build factories in italy and produce enough tanks by yourself.

http://www.aviapress.com/viewonekit.htm?ART-001

I believe that one could contain more than 13 photos of Tiger tanks. If you want to do more searches for Russian resources, I can help you unless you start insulting my intelligence by saying Russians made cardboard makets of Tigers under Prokhorovka and lit them on fire.

I mean there are a lot of photos in military archives released in Soviet sources, but not many if any ever make it out and none if any is ever believed, for whatever reasons. Making fake Tigers takes the top prize tho, you made me laugh. Whats next? Russians never captured Berlin?

 

Re: You actually..

Sarco, let me be the first person to tell you that you are a weirdo. You don't even have the first clue what you are talking about.

I ask you again.....GIVE ME UNITS, DATES AND CHASSIS I.D'S OF THE TIGERS THAT WERE DESTROYED AT KURSK!

P.S)I can easily trace all these to be sure. :lol:

 

Sarco
It was by no means nucommon to transport the tanks over great distances. Units were transported back and forth from the eastern to the western front many times, either because they were needed elsewhere or because they needed to refit.
All the German tanks were manufactured in Germany anyway, with the exception of Skoda and BMM, so they were transported from Germany to Russia.

Units, and with them their equipment, including tanks, were definately transported from Russia to Italy. For example, 1. SS-Pz.Gren.Div. 'LSSAH' was transported from Italy to Russia in the fall of 1943, after being withdrawn from Russia after Unternehmen Zitadelle. 16. and 24. Pz.Div. was transported from Italy to Russia as well.

Perhaps would could offer some counter evidence to support that the tanks were not moved back and forth?

If you can find photos of more than 13 different Tigers, I would be most surprised.

 

Just to make it clear - nobody is saying that the Germans did not lose the battle for Kursk (at least, I think they're not saying that!).
What is being said is that losses of Tiger I and Ferdinand tanks were not as great as is often claimed / assumed.

(Edit - just a few typos!)

 

Just for clarity,the numbers I gave for Tiger losses also included the defensive battles through July and August which wasn't part of Zitadelle.

 

It's long been felt by Western historians that the old Soviet histories of the Battle of Kursk exaggerated both the numbers the Germans fielded for the "Operation Citadel" offensive and the casualties inflicted on them by the Red Army.

 

I read a while back that there was a problem with the number of Ferdinands the Russians said they destroyed.

What happened IMO was they way the Russians wrote down what they saw.

Ever hear the myth that red cars get more speeding tickets? If the car looks red the cop just writes down red and the insurance companies say the same thing. Red cars get more tickets. Actually there are more different shades of red.

A Ferdinand as the Russians saw it could also be a Wespe. Or a Hornisse or a Hummel. I know of one instance that is well documented that a JS-1 was destroyed by a "Ferdinand" later to be corrected in a following report to say it was actually a 10.5 cm Wespe.

Different SPG's lumped into one category. Ferdinands.

 

My point exactly - there were many confusions throughout the war like this, and it is certainly not unlikely that it would also be the case for Tigers.

Christian

 

In addition I would like to point out that there is a lot more to winning or losing a battle than the number of tanks destroyed. The Soviets simply had a lot more tanks and the Germans had better AT guns; who do you think will lose more tanks?

Drawing a line from Lyndon's statement on Tiger losses at Kursk to some wild assumption that we think the Soviets never lifted a finger during the war is, I'm sorry to say, just stupid. Whatever do you base that on?