Welcome to the WWII Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the community.

Panthers at Kursk ?

Discussion in 'The Tanks of World War 2' started by Skua, Aug 16, 2004.

  1. Skua

    Skua New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2003
    Messages:
    2,889
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Norway
    via TanksinWW2
    How disasterous was the deployment of Panthers at Kursk really ? And was their ineffectiveness caused by mechanical troubles only ?

    I understand that about 200 Panthers were issued to the 51st and 52nd Panzer Battalions. One source I have claims that the Panzer Grenadier Division "Grossdeutschland" received Panthers for Operation Citadelle as well. Is this correct ?
     
  2. Ebar

    Ebar New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2004
    Messages:
    2,006
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    On a space station in geosynchronous orbit above y
    via TanksinWW2
    As I understood it the early reliability issues for the Panther related to an elventh hour upgrading of the armour resulting in an overloaded suspension system. Because of this alot of Panthers simply didn't reach the start line.
     
  3. Christian Ankerstjerne

    Christian Ankerstjerne Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2004
    Messages:
    2,801
    Likes Received:
    10
    Location:
    Denmark
    via TanksinWW2
    200 Panthers saw action at Kursk, in the following unit:

    Panzer-Regiment 39 (8 Panthers)
    - Panzer-Abteilung 51 (96 Panthers)
    - Panzer-Abteilung 52 (96 Panthers)

    No other units received Panthers for the offensive, however Panzer-Regiment 39 and Panzer-Regiment Großdeutschland were both commanded by Oberst Decker.

    During the inital drive to the combat area, two Panthers burnt out completely. No other Panthers were lost prior to the campaign.

    It is important to remember that the unit hadn't been allowed to train togetyher prior to the campaign, and thus had be tactical experience. Furthermore, the radios hadn't been tested prior to the start of the campaign.

    Many Panthers were later lost to what I attrbute to two major causes:
    - The lack of Pioniere meant that a mine field was not cleared
    - Poor tactical leadership, primarily by Graf Strachwitz

    In total, mechanical failures weren't a major cause of losses amongst Panzer-Regiment 39.

    The number of operational Panthers dropped quite suddenly, after the initial engagements:
    1943-07-05 - 184
    1943-07-06 - 166
    1943-07-07 - 40
    1943-07-09 - 16
    1943-07-10 - 10
    1943-07-11 - 30
    1943-07-12 - 25
    1943-07-13 - 43
    1943-07-14 - 36
    1943-07-15 - 20
    1943-07-16 - 43
    1943-07-17 - 44

    Many of the Panthers could be repaired, though, and only 56 Panthers were lost during the campaign, plus the two lost prior to the campaign. Of the 56, 49 were destroyed to prevent capture.

    JENTZ, THOMAS L. Panzer Truppen 2. Atglen: Schiffer Military History, 1996
     
  4. Bolo

    Bolo New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2004
    Messages:
    134
    Likes Received:
    0
    via TanksinWW2
    The Panthers had so many teething troubles it was ridiculous. Engines, you name it including gunnery optics that allowed moisture into the gunners sight.
     
  5. PanzerProfile

    PanzerProfile New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2003
    Messages:
    1,474
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Netherlands
    via TanksinWW2
    yeah, they were really full of problems back then. Luckily for the design the germans learned a lot from the battle and took advance of this while improving their piece of art.
    Nice records about the losses, btw!
     
  6. Lyndon

    Lyndon New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2004
    Messages:
    721
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    England
    via TanksinWW2
    During the Kursk offensive the Panther crews LOVED their gun as soon as they used it on enemy armour. :D

    They were less happy about the side armour and the early commander's cuppola had the same problems as the early Tiger I.
     
  7. Skua

    Skua New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2003
    Messages:
    2,889
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Norway
    via TanksinWW2
    I clicked on "view extract" from the New Vanguard book about the Panther on the Osprey home page this afternoon, and what did I find ?

     
  8. PanzerProfile

    PanzerProfile New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2003
    Messages:
    1,474
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Netherlands
    via TanksinWW2
    A text that fits perfectly in our thread! :D Nicely done, Skua. Good information.
     
  9. Lyndon

    Lyndon New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2004
    Messages:
    721
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    England
    via TanksinWW2
    Yes, the original road wheels fractured. That's why soon after Kursk double the amount of bolts were used for greater strength.
     
  10. poncho

    poncho New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2004
    Messages:
    29
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Argentina
    via TanksinWW2
    Transmission problems

    I have found out that the Panthers also had problems with their AK 7-200 transmissions, what rendered some of them virtually useless. The model was then discarded and then changed for better ones for other tanks, such as the Tiger II.
     

Share This Page