Russian atrocities

Statements as these are the truth,of course one can still stick to the ostrich policy.
In 1943,Churchill ordered to stop the aid to Michailovic,and to help instead Tito .
When someone objectes,Churchill answered :we both will not live in Yugoslavia after the war .
And it was the same in the US :after 4 years of pro communism propaganda,no one was doubting that Stalin was a true democrat (some Russian FDR) and every one was convicted that the people of Eastern Europe were very lucky to have the chance of being reeducated by the communists .While Washington was surfeited of communists,fellow travelers,cowards,stupid ones,there were a few people knowing what happened and what would happen ,but they were helpless,because,after 4 years of propaganda ........etc.

 

This is 100% true. If with this German policy Vlasov made 6 divisions, imagine what could happened if Germans get into the Soviet democracies as liberators.
See below (from wikipedia) the excuse from Ehrenburg about his 'Kill' essay.
quote
"Here are excerpts from three letters found on dead Germans. Inspector Reinhardt wrote to Lieutenant Otto Schirach:[2] "[...] I have found six Russians in the area. They last far longer than Frenchmen. Only one of them has died. [...] Their upkeep costs nothing and we must not tolerate that these animals, whose children are possibly killing our children right now, get to eat German bread. Yesterday I whipped lightly two Russian beasts who secretly drunk up skim milk meant for pigs [...]" A certain Otto Essmann wrote to Lieutenant Helmut Wiegand: "We now have some Russian prisoners of war. These fellows feed on worms by the airstrip and throw themselves at buckets of dirty water. I have seen them eating weeds. It is hard to believe that these are human beings..." Slavers - they would like to enslave our people. They take some Russians home, mistreat them, make them lose their wits by hunger, to the point that they eat grass and worms, and then a repulsive German with a stinking cigar can philosophise: "Are these perhaps human beings?" We know everything. We remember everything.
unquote
Not this, not anything, can justifies what happened later but we must be taken in consideration.

 

Are they? Let's take a look.

But of course that's just part of the story now isn't it. To quote from: trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2252&context=utk...

Page 18. And from page 39:

Which brings your 1943 date to question. Do you have a source for the supposed quote of Churchill by the way?

Here you contradict yourself in two sentences. I'd like to see some evidence to support "no one was doubting that Stalin was a true democrat" or indeed that even a majority believed that.

 

After the Tehran Conference,Churchill said to Fitzroy McLean that,as neither of them intended to live there (=Yugoslavia) after the war,".....the less you and I worry about the form of Government they set up,the better ....."
Source :Yugoslavia and the Allies :Churchill's Sources .
The remainder of the story(the motives of Churchill) is irrelevant :the point is that Churchill did not care on what would happen in Yougoslavia after the war,because he would not live in Yugoslavia after the war .
An intelligent reader would notice that I did not condemn -approved Churchill,I am only giving the fact:Churchill did not care .Why?,is another subject .

 

About the atrocities (with as beginning 1944):
1) more than 10 millions of Germans were expulsed ,more than 500000 died because of these expulsions
2) millions of Poles,..... had to leave their homes,tens of thousands died
3) hundreds of thousands were transported to the Gulags,few returned .
No one was concerned about point one :the general opinion was :the less Germans,the better .
In Western Europe,most people did not know what was happening,because the media were dominated by the communists .
About those who knew :
most did not care,others were unwilling to believe it :after all,Stalin was a good democrat .Others were afraid to be concerned,because it was to dangerous .

 

Ah but you said it was in regard to cutting off support for the Chetniks in 43 which of course they didn't. Furthermore it is not at all clear that Churchill didn't care. He may simply have realized that there was little he could do about it or that there were more pressing concerns at the time, other possibilities exist. It does indicate that it wasn't his top priority but then at one point Chruchill made a comment about being willing to make a deal with the devil himself if he would oppose Hitler (I think this was in reference to allying with the Soviets).

 

Churchill told Stalin at the Tehran conference his decision to support Tito (and ,that's implying that Mihailovic would no more get support).

 

Well looking at Flight and expulsion of Germans (1944
it looks like the majority of these may well have been volentarry. It lists between 6million and a bit over 8 million as leaving before they came under Soviet control. So implying the Soviets were responsible for over 10 million expulsions is questionable.

Looking at the death rates at File:Gulag mortality rate 1934 1953.PNG - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
the total death rate for the period 44-53 is under 30% which doesn't support the "few returned". The latter may well apply to POWs but that's a different matter.

Again a broad generalization that is obviously fallacious and does nothing to advance the topic indeed it tends to obscure it.

Source of the communist domination of West European media PLS. I'd also like to know how you know "most people did not know what was happening".

I'd like to see where you get the idea that many thought that "Stalin was a good democrat". Why was it dangerous to be concerned in Western Europe?

The Soviets were IMO on essentially the same level as the Nazis as far as atrocities are concnerned. That doesn't mean that we should exagnerate or paint them with too broad a brush.

 

And,about the image of Stalin in the US in WWII:the media (and there were a lot of communist moles in the media) were presenting (or selling )Stalin as a good democrat (Uncle Joe).And,as always,public opinion if following the media (some times,the opposite is happening)eople are believing what they are told .
Hollywood was making pro-Russian movies:
Miss V.from Moscow
Days of Glory
Mission to Moscow
North Star
Song of Russia
Tender Comrade
Counter Attack
The Battle of Russia(chapter 5 of "Why we fight")

 

Anyone have any figures regarding the mistreatment of other countries populations where the Red Army step foot?

Bulgaria, Finland, Hungary, Romania..... Japanese in Manchuria?

 

Some sources for Japanese pows in Russia here

Japanese prisoners of war in the Soviet Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

US-Japan Dialogue on POWs ( Japanese survivor of Uzbekistan camp)






US-Japan Dialogue on POWs


Kwantung Army - eNotes.com Reference

 

1)Geman census of 1931
EastPrussia :2.260000
Lower Silesia:3.224.000
Upper Silesia:5.O8O.000
+Grenzmark WestPrussia:340.000
+parts of Pomerania and Brandenburg
+Sudetenland :3 million
2)These people did not leave their homes voluntarily,but to save their lives,and later,were prevented to return.Those who did not fly were also expulsed.At the Yalta conference was decided that Germany would loose all territories east of the Oder-Neisse line,and that the German populations had to leave these territories .The Western allies agreed and there was a general indifference.

 

As an American,you are of course excused not to know what the situation was in Western Europe at the liberation :in France and Italy thousands of people were killed,in whole Western Europe hundred of thousands were arbitrarily locked up in camps,people were afraid ,an independant press did not exist,only some one very brave(or very fool) would claim his anticommunism,in a lot of regions,the scum was ruling .Most people did not know what was happening,because there was no free press .
About "few returned" :I did not say that most died in the camps ,but,few returned .

 

About the media in western europe:immediately after the war,there were no right wing newspapers,all were left wingers and crypto communists:till 1976,the foreign editor of the leading flemish newspaper "De Standaard" was a cryptocommunist.The media were swarming with cryptocommunists,fellow travelers,useful idiots .And,they are still swarming today (but they have chosen the islam side) .
Is it much better in the US with people as Ted Turner and Eleanor Clift ?

 

for those willing to acknowledge the facts :Orwell's List

 

What are you basing that statement on? can't speak for the whole of "Western Europe" but in Italy there was plenty of Monarchist, Catholic, Liberal and other right wing press, calling Indro Montanelli, possibly Italy's most influential post-war journalist, a cripto communist is a bit strong, pubblications like Il Borghese and Il Secolo d'Italia (the neo fascist party house organ) were pure right wing. AFAIK the same goes for France, and if you try to apply your statement to Franco's Spain (you can't get more "Western" than Spain in Europe) .......
First time I saw The Times labelled as cripto communist as well.
While the previuosly clandestine papers published by the communist underground in France and Italy were authoritative, as not tainted by collaborationism suspicion as the ones than had continued to publish under fascism, they certainly were not dominant.
BTW post war there was also quite a lot of covert US intelligence "piloting" of European opinion makers but generally speaking it was a free press with some foreign infleunce.

 

Did the Allies give back to Russia the men they captured in Ost Divisions serving on the Atlantic Wall and other places, if they did I wonder what was there fate under Stalins wing.

 

Many were returned and executed without a trial. Some were helped by the west, for instance they joined the Foreign Legion, but many were deliberately returned to Russia. Others settled in Germany and even Liechtenstein, but even there the Russians managed to convince some to return East only to ge them killed (the Liechtenstein train with Vlassov survivors didn't got beyond Hungary )

 

They made the decision to leave that makes it voluntary. Indeed some stayed and some did indeed return. Of those who stayed or returned some were expelled again but not all.

Given your habbit of over generalization and "misstatement of fact" it's going to take more than just your word to convince me. PLS provide some documentation. Note that some of the above has been repudiated by other posters already.

A rather ambiguous statment then. I find it highly questionable under most reasonable interpretations but perhaps you could clarify and maybe even attempt to support it.

 

In the period 1944-1947,the leftwing papers(directed by communists,cryptocommunists,fellowtravelers,useful idiots) dominated the media in Western Europe(=France,Italy,Belgium,Holland),the other newspapers followed (because they had no backbone?,otoh,who am I to judge them)the official pc line ,which was :no critique on the USSR,on Stalin,on communism .
And,this was the (main) reason why there were no informations on what happened beyond the Iron Curtain ;even an allusion on the Ribbentrop-Molotow pact was a sacrilege.