I forgot to make this post 30th of november, when it was 65 years from beginning of winter war between Soviet Union and Finland. I'd like to know what you know about winter war and if someone has some questions about it, I might be able to provide some answers. But here is some things about how it began: 26th of november, few artilleryshells landed near village Mainila at SU side of border. SU accused Finland for that shootings but nowadays even Russia admits that Red Army was responsible for that. Using this incident as excuse, SU invaded Finland early in the morning 30th of november.
Notmi, could you provide a source for the Russians admission please? That would go well with my research!
What I know... Well, it was the winter of 1939-1940, obviously. The Russians invaded Finland via the Karelian peninsula, but I don't know why or exactly where. They lost hugely, but I don't know why. In some cases the Finnish knew their ground so well that a comapny of them surrounded and forced the surrender of a whole Russian division. That's about it. Obviously, I'm waiting for you to fill this yawning gap.
Tom: I'm sorry but now I hit the language barrier I dont quite understand what you mean with that "Russians admission". Could you please explain that? Roel: SU main attack was at Karelian isthmus but they attacked several other places along the border. Just north from lake Lagoda, Suomussalmi and all the way up to Petsamo. And why: During summer -39 SU and Germany made a certain treaty. According to this treaty SU and Germany wont attack each other (I'm sure there is a certain word for this kind of treaty). This treaty also had secret part in where SU and Germany divided some parts of northern europe to themselves. Western Poland was for Germany, eastern part was for SU, along with baltic countries and Finland. During autumn -39 SU requested certain parts of Karelian isthmus, some islands and Hanko peninsula (or Porkkala peninsula, dont remember which) for themselves, in exchange for some larger area up north. Those parts from Karelian isthmus was to be a bufferzone for Leningrad. To cut many months of diplomatic talking to one sentence: Finland refused. SU made similar requests for Baltic countries and they didn't refuse under pressure. Later -40 SU occupied these countries. I'll continue later with this.
Ok, now visitors left. Why red army wasn't succesful? They weren't expecting hard defence. Althought red army had more heavy equipment (namely tanks, aircrafts, ships, artillery) than Finns, they lacked some winter equipments, like winter camouflaged uniforms (thought Finnish army lacked uniforms too, those mixtures of civillian and military equipments were called as model Cajander in order to thank prime minister A.K. Cajander who didn't manage to give army enough money to buy equipments it needed). Stalin eliminated most of the senior officers of red army just few years before winter war. Those unexperienced officers didn't manage to make a good winter strategy to occupy Finland, neither managed those officers at front to use good tactics. This led to horrendous losses when troops were just marching in front of machineguns. This kind of things happened mainly at Karelian isthmus. Up north there were those flanking and surrounding battles where skiing Finnish troops were much more manouverable than red army troops which were relying to roads and didn't have skiis. Those battles were most horrid for individual russian soldier (in my humble opinion). In short: Red army was really ill-prepared for winter war. That is why Finnish army managed to defend so successfully despite the numbers. Hopefully this answered to your questions, Roel. If you have some more to ask, just go ahead. I try to provide answers.
Thank you very much Notmi! The Molotov-von Ribbentrop Pact is generally known as a Non-Agression Treaty (the term you were looking for?). Questions, eh, is there no way to tactically avoid the impenetrable areas of Finland and thereby playing on the advantage in mobility and heavy weaponry (that is, tank units) fielded by the Russians? If so, why didn't they exploit it?
fiNNISH WAR To be able to manouvre requires independent individual thinking which was exactly was exterminated by Stalin out of fear for his own skinDictators do NOT like smart generals trained to think and act. They prefer them to do just what they are told which was what was done against the Finns and led to the hideous losses.
Was Finland ever part of Russia or an ally? How did Finland come to use the Mosin-Nagant rifles? I remember reading about Finland receiving foreign aid like planes. What did they get and who from?
JCalhoun: Finland was part of Russia from 1809 to 1917. We got our independence from Russia 6th December 1917. Finland was kinda "allied" to SU after Continuation war when we were obligated to throw German forces out of Lapland. I was actually going to make a thread about the war of Lappland because it started autumn -44 and its now 60 years from it. But more about it later... Mosin-Nagants: Finland got those from Russian garrisons after getting independence. Same way getting those ugly, heavy maxims. Foreign aid: Yes, Finland got aid from various countries, like Morane-Saulnier MS 406's from France, Gloster Gladiators, Hawker Hurricanes and Bristol Blenheims from Britain, Fiat G.50's from Italy etc. Some of these were donated, some bought. Not all of them came in time (like Hurricanes, they came too late). Finland also got smaller arms, ammunition etc, just about everything fighting country needs. Unfortunatelly numbers were quite low and not all equipment got from foreign countries were useful. There were also some foreign volunteers fighting in winter war. These volunteers were from all over the world but main bulk of them came from Sweden. They even got their own AA-guns and fighters with them. Britain and France promised their help too and this threat eventually brought SU to peacetalks and this lead to peace. Roel: Yes, non-aggression pact was what I was looking for. I'm going to answer your question later (after studying a bit). FRIEND: Well summed.
Notmi, sorry for the confusion. What I was referring to was that the Russians admitted that they started the shelling.
I couldn't find original source but here are some stories in english: Source:http://www.oppression.org/europe/chechnya1999war.html Source:http://www.prokarelia.net/en/reform/print.php?x=5-57 Unfortunatelly I dont have more good sources in english.
I'm definitely not an expert but here goes nothing... Actually, during wintertime, our lakes and rivers don't arent much of and obstacle for heavy units. Frozen lakes can carry tanks (maybe not the heaviest one but up to medium tank, I believe). But forest are an obstacle for tanks both summer and winter. I believe the most important reason for not exploiting tanks mobility etc was the fact that infantry failed to follow tanks. Tanks passed easily Finnish defencelines but infantry was killed. After that those tanks were vulnerable for close range antitanks weapons (chargepiles and molotov's coctails).
It should also be mentioned that the Red Army troops did not have winter uniforms, due to Stalin's overconfidence.
Didn't German Army chaps advise the Soviets on winter clothing etc? (this obviously during the phase when the CCCP let the Germans test weaponry etc in their country) Both times round it does seem that Winter equipment was around, and the army had done their homework - but they were over-ruled by higher authority. :roll:
Only an idiot would invade Russia without issuing, or at least having on hand, adequate winter clothing and supplies. For I have never heard of anyone conquering Russia in a single summer.
Long ago I read a very interesting bit on info about the poor Russians who went after the Finns long ago. All of the reasons above are true, the wrong uniforms and just generally unprepared and incompetently lead but you need to add the fact that the men who were fighting came from the sunny Ukraine and were never trained in winter warfare and were not accustomed to THAT kind of winter.
the main reason for the lack of proper uniforms and clothing is that hitler believe he could conque rusia in a shot campaing, 3 or 4 months at most
