German Four Engined Bombers ?

Another split from the Tanks of WWII section

All the countries were delevoping jet planes, however the german rockets like the V2 were lightyears ahead of the US. Which was why they nabbed them all and the scientists at the end of the war. Didn't see them nabbing the tank/rifle designers?

The germans never really developed a 4 engined heavy bomber. At first it was thought not to be needed as it's didn't fit in with their battle plans as in pre 41, and then it was to late and a low priority.

I have no doubt that they could have made something decent if they put their mind to it and had time.

FNG

 

I knew it, I knew it! :lol:
You just couldn´t miss the opportunity, but you have, unfortunately missed my point (about the flying saucers).
And if you don´t believe that the Germans REALLY tried to make a 4-motor bomber and really couldn´t, however hard they tried, I must refer you to Milch´s memoirs. It was his, and Hitler´s, nightmare for a long time.

 

The Germans actually made a four-engine bomber, but they attached two engines to one propeller. I forgot which plane this was. Anyway, flying saucers exist only in the fantasy of conspiracy thinkers and they don't appear to have any combat merit at all, so I doubt the Germans would have researched them.

 

Heinkel He-177 Greiff had 4 engines and 2 props!

What about the Me-264 Amerika Bomber wich had 4 engines?
What about the Ju-380 wich had 6 engines?
What about the Ju-287 wich had 4 Jet engines?

The Germans tried! 8)

 

He-177 coupled motors burned almost every time it flew. Milch writes about it at length. The others had, as far as I know, no influence. Constructed, yes, accepted for production?????

 

I believe this is the worst case of 'off topic' ever in the forum´s history. But just for the record. The He 177 was indeed trouble-ridden but the Germans had a couple of other decent four engined designs which were both produced, namely the Fw 200 and the Ju 290.

 

There, the topic has been split.

As you were. :smok:

 

In his book -' The Hunt for Zero Point, Nick Cook has some interesting things to say about the technology Germany was developing in WW2 and the race by the variouis Allies to grab it for themselves.

Nick Cook is an aerospace consultant for the Janes Group and as far as I know doesn't have a carear death wish by describing some of the things he has without having something to back him up. The book first came out in 2002 and he is still with the Janes Group - he also did a TV programm for Channel 4 about US Black Projects.

 

The others had, as far as I know, no influence

The Fw200 is refered in many books as the Scourge of the Atlantic, and was more or less responsible for the development of Hurricats and the Catapult Armed Merchantman for the Atlantic convoys. Fw200 helped guide the U-boats to their targets and were a real menace for the convoys.

The Ju290 was also accepted and entered service in small numbers.

To say that the He177 was unreliable and suffered real problems with its engines is true, but as bad as its engines were it's a bit of an exaggeration to say they burnt almost every time it flew!

The Germans were capable of producing 4 engine bombers, but they chose not to for practical reasons (The wanted a big airforce built quickly, the resources for 2 four engine bombers could build 5 twin engines, roughly) and for military reasons (They wanted a tactical airforce for Blitzkreig they did not envision needing a Strategic bomber force until it was too late to develop one, in any case its usefulness would have been debatable).

 

I agree with Simon and that was what I meant. Germany pre war planned a tactical airforce of meduim bombers to support offensive actions, not long range heavy bombers to undertake strategic bombers.

By the time they realised what they were missing there simply was neither the will nor the resources to build something good or in numbers.

German aeronautics were certainly up to the task as they were at the least the match of the Allies.

FNG

 

Yes, I have sinned. I´ve exagerrated telling, that He177 burned almost every time it flew. I am sinking the words with some shame. Maybe I was under impression of Milch´s book, where Hitler calls the plane “ Panther with wings” due to many (I would have said – innumerable, but I don´t) defects during development of both. And it´s not because they didn´t try. They needed strategic bombers but there were no good, cheap constructions at hand. Hitler got fits of fury in Milch´s presence because there were problems with He177 again. So, he wanted a strategic bomber. He wanted to revenge the ruins of Germany. And that was originally my point.

 

Who in Germany could predict that the British (and later – Americans) will act so ungentlemanly and bomb Germany, incl. civilian targets, back to stoneage? Maybe a good intelligence service would have helped, as the (British) strategy was approved before the outbreak of WW2. The Germans have certainly had no plans to bomb civilian areas as a method of warfare. However, it would not have been a bad idea to be prepared for such a surprise and have a solid, cheap strategic bomber ready for mass production, in case. FW200 was neither cheap nor simple. It was actually ageing in 1942-3. Till the end of the war they were unable to design something along the lines of Lancaster. G-d knows why they persevered with the unlucky He177.

 

"The Germans have certainly had no plans to bomb civilian areas as a method of warfare"?????????

Warsaw in 39? Rottadam in 40?

The Germans knew the terror of bombing civilian targets when the target was just the civilians. They just did it as part of their blitzkreig and only needed medium bombers to do it.

FNG

 

Warsaw was most unforunately declared a fortress. So, for this moment on, this was not a civilian target. In Rotterdam there was some Dutch military refusing to surrender. When they did, Germans did all they could to stop the bombers, but to no avail (I´m sure Roel knows a lot more details about that. Maybe there is someone from Poland to tell when the decision to defend Warsaw was taken and when the first bombs fell). The first bombs on London, AFAIR, was a tragic mistake: a nighttime bomber tried to dump his bombs somewhere, not knowing he was flying over London itself. But the first purposeful bombing long from front lines was British. AFAIR, it was in May 1940. Is there someone to correct me?
Anyways, I am not talking of raids, here or there, but a POLICY to destroy enemy country utterly by bombing, incl. civilians. That policy was British and, later, American.

 

Few weeks ago I've read a book from cpt. Brown, a UK Navy pilot, who was a test pilot of captured German aircrafts at the end of the war. He was imressed by Fw200-Condor, the more that he used to fight against them as a combat pilot. He177 was according to him one of the greatest mistakes of Luftwaffe. He thought, He177 could have been a good bomber if the RLM hadn't give an additional proposition to the engineers, to equip the plane with the dive/bombing mechanism (He177 was simplz too big and too heavy to act as a diver/bomber|.[/i]

 

Thanks Moonchild. It looks, as if Germans, or Hitler, had problems seeing the strong sides of their own equipment (Like Me 262).
What did he like about Condor? Knowing Wellington and other Allied machines. It was a slow, elderly design from 1936. It wouldn´t supprise me if its production costs were also high. And if it was really that good, why did H. gambled with He 177 nad played with many other more or less outlandish designs. And at the end of the day stood without a fleet of strategic bombers? Interesting.

I have just seen a website with german experimental machnies and designs. It looks like a little army of ambitious engineers was competing to create the most strange construction ever. And all of this at a time, when soemething very basal and simple was necessary.

 

The Condor was never designed or intended as a strategic bomber.
It was originally a long-range civilian transoprt, militarised into a long-range maritime patrol aircraft, with a small bombload for attacking any undefended shipping.

However, Germany could, if it wanted to, develop a 4-engined bomber. The trouble was, they did not want to. Not until it was too late. And even then, they could have had one (He177) if they had not stuck to ridiculous & outmoded theories.

But then, would strategic bombers have helped Germany?

The only real use for a German 4-engined bomber was:

1) attack British factories
2) attack Russian factories
3) attack the USA

however...

1) Britian had arguably the best air-defence system in the world in 1941/2. Any bombers would certainly need escort fighters. Which the Luftwaffe did not have... (discounting the Bf110 for obvious reasons). Heck, the German medium bombers could reach pretty much all of Britain anyway, so the only reason for a 4-engined heavy is for greater bombload. They would have benefitted more from stepping up their campaign to kill off the RAF.

2) By far the best option, IMO. However, the Russian factory complexes were vast. Fleets of bombers would have been needed, which ws beyond the ability of Germany to produce and still have a decent chance in the land war.

3) Impractical. This has been discussed elsewhere on here. Basically there was no way at the time to get a plane to the east coast of America with a worthwhile bombload. And then of course you have again the issues of escort fighters, and the fact that not all Ameerican factories were on the east coast...

So I ask you this: How would a 4-engined strategic bomber have helped Germany?

 

I agree with you, Rick. They wouldn´t have helped. Still, Hitler was furious because he had not the powerful 4-motor fleet for revenge. Hitler was not always rational, as we have established long ago.
Building asuch a fleet would have been irrational, but not more so than his gamble on V-2s, a real catastrophe form economic POV. And his designers, however hard they tried, were unable to give him the weapon he wanted. Not because the haven´t tried.
I´ve mentioned FW200 only because our friends above had done it, as an example of German technological achievement in the field of 4-motor aircraft.

 

I know, I was just pointing out that it was good at what it was designed for. Aside from the slight structural weakness caused by hanging a load of military equipment on it...

 

I´m a steady guy and would still be happy to see some discussion on the Allied strategy of bombing. Not because I want to harass my British and American friends, but this is very disturbing to me. I don´t remember the history WW1 civilian bombing raids. AFAIR, there were German attempts to bomb London with some heave bombers and Zeppelins (?). But the scale and the very principle of bombing large civilian areas was something new in WW2. How could that happen, even if the situation of Britain in 1940 and ´41 was very difficult? How was Dresden justified, f. ex.?
Maybe, if there is some interest for this subject, the admins would wish to make a new topic out of it?