France must have had a few new designs under development or evaluation in 1940, at least on paper, which was aborted because of the occupation. I've heard of the AMX-38 and the ARL-44, the latter developed clandestinely under German occupation, but there must have been others ?
You mean this one?: That must have been a little difficult building that huge thing under Nazi occupation. The Char Seam was a prototype tank that was run by a hybrid electric/gasoline engine.
PANHARD 201 (1939-40) G-1 Lorraine ARL 40 FCM F 1 SOMUA Sau 40 LAFFLY W 15 TCC (1940) AMX 38 Regards, Che.
Goodie, but some information with the pics would be even better. I don't think they actually built until after the occupation. The design ( paperwork ) was started during the occupation though.
Looks mean! What were the specifications of this tank? Why didn't the Germans incorporate some of the design features at some early point during the war (such as fixed skirts and "sloped" armour)? Was this because Hitler ordered all tank development to be halted because he felt he already had what he needed? Cool, it's the Archer, but with wheels!
lool, ok here we go; Dérivé du Renault R 40. L'Atelier de Construction des Moulineaux (AMX) étudie en 1937 un projet de char léger d'accompagnement prévu pour remplacer les chars du programme de 1933. L'accent est mis sur la mobilité et l'armement, deux points faibles des chars précédents. Sorry for spaming Best wishes, Che.
Awesome pictures Che! Those definently some unique designs there, too bad they never got to see combat. The G-1 looks like it could handle itself pretty well. The AMX-38 is my new choice for ugliest tank of WWII. The Lorraine reminds me alot of the Post-WWII Marder. And the ARL-40, well, I don't know what to say to that. :lol: Looks like theres some sort of tesla coil/bellow pump thing on the right side. Any info on that anyone?
There was much paperwork and designs under the Vichy regime, but the only that was actually produced was the CDM armoured car, whose delivery began clandestinely in october 1940, just a month before the germans occupied the free zone.
Hello, Their would be plenty of prototypes and interesting designs to mention. You could read about the Renault B1ter for example also. If France had not fallen, in 1941 you would have had - B1ter heavy tank - Somua S40 medium tank - SAu40 self propelled gun (for heavy support and also as self-propelled AT gun) - ARL40 self propelled gun - Renault G1 tank - Lots of tank destroyers like the Laffly W15TCC (already used in 1940) in its armored version and the Lorraine 37L tractor armed with the 47mm L/53 AT gun. - etc. The ARL44 tank has been indeed studied clandestinely by the French armament industries under the German occupation. It should have armed the French army after the liberation but the lack of resources didn't allow that. Only 60 vehicles have been produced and delivered (300 initially ordered) in 1947-1950. Produced by A.R.L. (Atelier de Construction de Rueil) and equipped with a German Maybach HL230 engine. The 90mm SA45 gun is derived from the French 90mm Mle 1939 AA gun. You know all the Vichy stuff is by far not so black and white than many people think it is. There were many hidden things and double games, hidden weapons dumps etc. Did you for example know that more than 2000 secret agents working for Germany (including French people) had been arrested by the Vichy counter-intelligence services between 1940 and 1942 ? Many have been tortured and or shot. In 1940, an improved version of the Somua S35 is tested and called Somua S40, 374 of these tanks were ordered but no one delivered to the French army. The hull is 33cm wider than the one of the S35 (lower center of gravity), the sprocket is set higher on the hull and there is a longer track work (one more wheel) to increase the cross-country capabilities. It is powered by a more powerful (219 hp) Hispano diesel engine. The S40 was to be equipped with the new ARL2C turret and the new design was to be substituted to the APX1CE turret beginning August 1940 The Somua SAu40 was a self-propelled gun intended to provide support to the French mechanized (DLM and DCR) units. Somua prepared 3 designs, one being chosen in 1935 and delivered in December 1937. The 75mm APX gun mounted in the hull was only finalized in 1938. It was a derivative from the "75mm Mle1929 de casemate" found in the Maginot line. The gun itself could be drawn inside the hull (the operation took 12 seconds) when driving in close column movements or when a crash with an obstacle (a wall for example) was planned. The traverse was 7° left and 7.6° right with an elevation of -10° to +30°. The aiming devices consisted of two 4x sights and of a stereoscopic telemeter for indirect fire. Ammunition supply was of 200 shells (HE and APHE). The future of this self-propelled gun remained unclear for a long time but its ability to deliver direct/indirect artillery support as well as anti-tank protection won the point and the prototype was tested in 1939. The hull is based on the one scheduled for the Somua S40. A rear firing MG was installed in a command copula, whose front part received the main gun aiming devices. The SAu40 was also equipped with E26ter / R61 radio sets ranging up to 30 km (voice or morse transmission) for the moving vehicle and 60km in station. An order of 24 self-propelled guns and 12 command tank versions (without 75mm APX gun) was initially signed on 15th October 1939 but due to the very low availability of the 75mm APX gun it has been modified on 1st May 1940 for 72 vehicles, but this time armed with the 47mm Mle1937 L/53 AT gun instead of the 75mm APX gun. The prototype was made from real armor and found its way to the front in June 1940. It fought with a Somua S35 squadron near Compiègne. Some authors state that four SAu40 tanks fought in June, including one with a 75mm APX gun and 3 with the 47mm AT gun. LORRAINE 37L CC (CC = chasseur de chars = tank destroyer) The Lorraine 37L was armed with a 47mm SA37 L/53 AT gun, designed to be a tracked tank destroyer, to ambush the German armored divisions. Manufacturing started in May 1940 and those that arrived to the front had little impact on the war. Often it is said that it was a German modification, which is mistaken. LAFFLY W15 TCC (CC = chasseur de chars = tank destroyer) The Laffly W15 TCC has been produced in the May-June panic, it is not a prototype, it saw action. A prototype has been tested during the Phoney war, and was fully armored. The early May engagements revealed the need for a self-propelled AT gun, and W15 chassis were requisitioned to receive 47mm L/53 Mle37 AT guns. Only the first vehicles were totally armored, for the others, armored plates were put to protect the front part of the vehicle and two small other plates were added to the conventional shield of the AT gun on the rear. 70 were operational by the end of May 1940 and saw action. They were issued to 14 anti-tank batteries (BACA = batterie d'anti-chars automoteurs) of 5 vehicles. Deployed in Abbeville for example but they had no Panzer to be opposed to there and they gave outstanding results on the Loire defenses but had little impact on the whole war. They proved to be very successful, lightly armored but fast and adapted to hit and run tactics. The 54th BACA commanded by lieutenant Brussaux for example, engaged from 5th June 1940 on, destroyed 28 German tanks, 5 German armored cars and one German aircraft in 8 days. Weight : 4.96t Crew : 3 men (an NCO, a gunner and a driver) Maximum armor : 12-15mm Maximum speed : 48 km/h (4 cylinders, 2300 cm3, 56 hp) Armament : a 47mm SA37 L/53 AT gun (270° traverse towards rear, 30 shells) and a FM 24/29 AAMG (1000 rounds) – the crew has also a Thompson SMG with 500 rounds among other misc light armament. Renault G1 tank In 1936 a new program is launched to develop a "G" tank for the infantry. Somua, SEAM and Renault will propose prototypes or models. The initial requirement are a weight of about 20 tons, an armor of 50mm, a top speed of 50 km/h, a range of about 200 km and an armament consisting in a 47mm (75mm) gun mounted in a turret and 2 MGs. In fact the infantry wanted a kind of Somua S35 like the cavalry. The G1 tank would be lighter than the B1bis, easier to produce and cheaper to produce. At the same time, Germany started to study the Panzer III and the Panzer IV, armed respectively with a 37mm and a 75mm gun mounted in a turret. - For Somua the chassis is the one of the future Somua S40 with a dual armament, an APX4 turret with a 47mm SA35 gun and a 75mm hull gun. It is a kind of B1bis but weighting about 25 tons instead of 32 tons. The armor would reach 60mm, there is a 300hp engine (12 cylinders) allowing to reach 40 km/h and the hull gun as a traverse of 12°. These projects are not followed but will lead to the development of the Somua SAu40. - The second prototype is the G1P (P for Poniatowski) developed by SEAM. This project is also a dual tank, it will be stopped. The Germans will capture at least one prototype in 1940 according to photographic evidences. - Renault develops a different tank, with a modern chassis and all the armament in a new kind of turret. The turret will be equipped with a 47mm L/53 gun (V° = 840 m/s) and/or a 75mm gun (shortened 75mm Mle1897 barrel with a semi-automatic breech Mle1935 - V° = 555 m/s). The studies from Renault are more similar to the Panzer IV in Germany, the T34 in Russia or the future M4 Sherman in 1942, which will be partly inspired by French engineers detached in Washington in July 1940. The G1R would have been produced in September 1940 (the effective war against Germany was not expected before 1941) but the development was stopped in June 1940. The French in 1937/1939 also preferred a dual armament at this time, like the British for the first developments of the Churchill and the USA with the later M3 Grant for the USA. In May 1940, the combats proved that Renault was right with its 75mm gun mounted in the turret and such a tank would have been really useful. The USA will nonetheless develop the M3 Grant, arguing that it was too intricate to handle 75mm shells in a small turret. The British will cancel the planned mounting of a 3 inches (76.2mm) gun in the Chassis of the Churchill after Saint-Nazaire in 1941 and the first combats in North-Africa. The Renault G1R is armed with a 47mm SA37 L/53 gun or a 75mm gun based on the barrel of the 75mm Mle1897 field gun, both can be seen on the wooden models made by Renault. The anti-tank capacity is far better with the 47mm gun but the HE shells are more powerful for the 75mm guns. It is therefore planned to arm platoons of 3-5 tanks with 47mm and 75mm armed tanks. The 75mm gun would also have been able to fire the new Brandt 75/57mm sub-calibrated shells and Brandt HEAT shells (see below). After visiting Germany in late 1929/early 1930, members of the Soviet Mission invited the German engineer Edward Grote to the USSR. After his arrival, Grote began work at the AVO-5 Design Office, within the Aviation Engine Department of the 'Bolshevik' Factory. He led a team that was engaged on designing on a heavily armored, medium-weight tank as an alternative to the maneuverable T-24 . In 1930, prototypes of the experimental, TG Tank (Tank Grote) were subjected to trials and found to have some faults. Despite rectifying the faults that were found during testing, it was decided that the TG Tank would not be placed in production. Further work on the TG Tank was suspended and the services of Edward Grote were no longer required and in August 1933, Grote was requested to leave the USSR. He was then thought to have gone to France and worked for Renault on the development of the experimental G1R tank. On the declaration of war he may have moved to the USA and been involved in the design of the Sherman tank. He is barely mentioned anywhere except for the US immigration records for that period that recorded an Edward Grote as taking up employment with the US Government in mid 1940. Brandt new generation shells The studies led by Brandt in the 30's aimed to increase the initial velocity of the shells (without increasing of the chamber pressure) and also more generally to increase the penetration power of the shells. The French company Brandt developed series of sub-calibrated HVAP/APCR/APHC shells : 37/25mm, 75/57mm and also sub-calibrated projectiles for the 155mm and 203mm guns of the French navy. The other nations did not develop similar or equivalent systems before 1941/1942. The 37/25mm subcalibrated shell with a 20mm core was tested but could not enter in service before the armistice. The V° was 850 m/s and it had the same penetration capacity than the 25mm SA34/37 AT gun. The same 37/25mm subcalibrated shell was also planned to be used in the 25mm SA34/37 AT gun, reaching in that case a V° of 1150 m/s, but the barrels had to be modified. The most outstanding realization is probably the 75/57mm shell with a muzzle velocity of 900 m/s and a penetration of 90mm/35° at 1000m ... The 75mm Mle1897 and Mle1897/33 guns could have engaged and destroyed the German Panzer IVs at 2500m in May/June if such shells would have been available ! Beside the sub-calibrated shells, Brandt also developed a 75mm HEAT shell at this time, using the patent of the Swiss Mohaupt. The tests took place in Bourges in 1940 and the results were that impressive that they were put in the secret immediately in order to avoid German capture. On 14th June 1940, the French war ministry authorized Brandt to give all these info to the USA and the United Kingdom, including the exploitation licence for the Mohaupt patent. The inventor, Henry Mohaupt, by the intermediary of the Brandt company filed for US patent on 10th February 1941 and it is kept secret on 7th March 1941. The sub-calibrated shells were used in the UK as basis to develop the APDS shells (armored piercing discarded sabot) issued from 1942/1943. The first AT guns using them were the 6 Pdr and 17 Pdr AT guns. Regards, David
How do you mean they planned for the future....it looks precsly like the later Panhard EBR http://www.chars-francais.net/
