Bombing of Dresden--and for what?

I absolutely agree with Mr. Sapper.
Dresden raid was just a revenge for that unimaginable horror German crimes all over the world.

 

I had accepted that Dresden was bombed for strategic reasons, especially because the Russians demanded it... but Gentlemen, this your reasoning is problematic again.

Sapper: Your point proves convincingly that no one who sympathizes with nazis or the German war effort in WW2 is in any way entitled to complain about Dresden.

Not more, not less.

Sorry, but I can't agree in the reasoning "The Germans killed so many innocent civilians, therefore it was justified to kill their innocent civilians, too.", and I won't ever do. This leads back to blood revenge attitude in stone age.

 

The guys who think Coventry was "fine" can't say that Dresden wasn't "fine", too.

The guys who think Dresden was "fine" can't say that Coventry wasn't "fine", too.

Those who say one was fine, and the other was not are applying double standards and are hypocrists to me.

I say: Any military operation targeting primarily civilians is a war crime.

And "revenge" is a easy coat to hide your own bestialities. I dareto say that most nazi bestialities were explained with "revenge", too.

Cheers,

 

And I say it's easy to sit here six decades later and criticise-my final on this one.


Regards,
Gordon

 

Criticising is an integral part of discussion and done for plenty topics in here, so if you deem this inappropriate, you thwart this forum as it is.

 

50 Million lost their lives in WW2, who started that war?
The Nazi's called mass meetings to propose "TOTAL WAR" that means that anything is possible....Anything! And dear friends, it was their idea..Not ours.

Goebels asked them "Do you want TOTAL WAR"? the mob screamed back JA! JA!

Now the allied command being "an obliging and kindly lot" thought that they would fullfill the Nazi yearning for TOTAL WAR.

After all, its not often that one gets what one wants.... And for free, what more do you want?
It cost enough!
Now, for heavens sake they are complaining? Why? Why? They asked for total war, and made it quite plain that there was no atrocity too savage, nor any murderous cruelty that they could inflict on innocent men, women, and children, in TOTAL WAR..

Unfortunately, they lost the taste for TOTAL WAR. Tough.Tough.

If I had my way, having experienced, and fought with my American, and Canadian mates. I would have given them far more TOTAL WAR. Like many of my generation, of all allies, we paid the price that gives you... the freedom to complain about TOTAL WAR.

Ask your Veterans what they think about the bombing. Then if you expound on the moan about bombing the poor enemy? be careful... stand back out of "left hook range".
Sapper.

 

Knight,
there's discussing.....and there's watching the same old arguments go round and round since January 2001.
Nothing new has been said....nothing has been clarified. Just the same old PC hand-wringing time after time after time.
I believe I used the expression "Revisionist History" in an earlier posting. I haven't seen anything to convince me I was wrong.

Regards,
Gordon

[ 10. January 2004, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: The_Historian ]

 

The Dresden Raid was a horrible thing, but it must be remembered that it is Hitler, insistent on war at all costs and indifferent to the price Germany and the world paid for his war, who is the true villain behind Dresden's suffering.

Adolf Hitler: "Those who want to live, let them fight, and those who do not want to fight in this world of eternal struggle do not deserve to live."

Adolf Hitler: "We will not capitulate - no, never! We may be destroyed, but if we are, we shall drag a world with us - a world in flames."

Saxon State Library: Photo of Dresden's Frauenkirche and surrounding buildings, 1945

Saxon State Library: Photo of Dresden's Frauenkirche and surrounding buildings, 1947

[ 10. January 2004, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: Ahab ]

 

Only problem, sapper: Whom exactly do you address with "they"?

I agree with you, and I do not support these revisionistic arguments of NoName etc. However, avoid committing exactly the same mistake as you described: repetition.

If you say:
"The Allies bombed Dresden for several reasons. It cost the lives of civilians. That's (total) war, and we did not start it." ... ok, I can live with that.

But the reasoning of sapper (which you support) reads as:
"The Allies bombed Dresden for several reasons. It cost the lives of civilians. That was good and justified, as we did not start this..."

... do you notice the difference? This is going too far, Gordon.

[ 10. January 2004, 04:11 PM: Message edited by: KnightMove ]

 

Knight,
We'll agree to disagree, as I already said I wasn't going to continue, and find myself doing exactly that.

Regards,
Gordon

 

It appears that after many pages this thread should be closed. It is outta steam boyz ! On one had you have British friends for the bombing plus justification and on the other, German friends who state it should not of happened and that it was a war crime......

ok then enough !

 

"They" Were the German people, When Goebels spoke the hall was crowded with German People all yelling "JA" with the Nazi salute to TOTAL WAR.
I cannot understand why there are still those around that stand up for that barbaric bastard, and his cohorts. I, during my fightimg days had to push up through the Falaise pocket...

Now there is a prime example of TOTAL WAR.... I bet the Germans and Austrians trapped there wish to GOD there had been no such thing as TOTAL WAR
For like the bombing, "he who sows the wind reaps the whirlwind" they had a taste of it, I Personally never wish to see anything like that again.
Sapper.

 

No offense sapper, but here you do fall for very Goebbels propaganda.

It was not the German people who yelled "JA". These were a lot of chosen fanatic nazis to fill the stadium. This was NOT open to public, as you maybe believe.

There are no statistics, but I believe that even the majority of the German people were desperate when they listened to the speech in their Volksempfängers, and realized very well what it meant. The raid against the Soviet Union, the declaration of war against the USA, and the total war... the German people did foresee the consequences! They were not so dull and fanatic as Hitler and Goebbels wanted to make the world believe.

 

I find myself agreeing with Erich.
At the end of the day, we're all still FRIENDS.


Regards,
Gordon

 

So what? Knowing what a city looks like, even knowing what each individual building is beforehand, does not equate to being able see, identify, target and destroy the same building when flying several miles up and in total darkness, and dropping bombs with no guidance systems.

Precisely, 'the target being the city's interior', not hospitals, schools, kindergartens or any other sufficiently emotive institutions.

[ 10. January 2004, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: Greenjacket ]

 

I can't share the idea that "TOTAL WAR" started on Feb. 18, 1943, because Herr Goebbels said so.

For the Brits, the war was already "total" by summer 1940, when they were facing the fear for the very existance of the UK, whith the questions what the next months will bring to Great Britain.

For the Soviets, the war was "total" since June 1941, when the Wehrmacht rolled over thier territory, threatening the very existance of the Soviet Union.

And for Germany, the war was "total" as soon as the Allies threatened the very existance of the Reich.

As long as you can afford to fight "limited wars" you do so, as soon as the existance of your nation is in question, you gear up to "total war".

There's nothing remakable in this to me.

Cheers,

 

The Germans started the war and they paid for it.

Destroying cities and Germany were definitely in the Bomber Command and Morgenthau plans. This happened.

War ended in May 1945.

The facts. If the discussion continues I hope there are new facts or evidence to go with it as I personally think this thread is going through the same things all over again and only making people upset and angry.

 

Mr. Alexanderr. I apreciate your opinion. But, could you use the word "Nazis" or similar instead of "German(s)"? It sure sounds better and there is so much difference between them.
Thank you for your time.

 

Re-directed from another thread:

Please read the facts provided by many well-versed members on this subject before you state such things.

Legally speaking, it cannot be considered as a war crime, since the Allied commanders and men responsible for the attack should then be prosecuted by a court. However, the Allied Justice Court at Nürnberg did NOT prosecute German leaders and men from the Luftwaffe for strategic bombing of cities.

If Harris is going to be put under trial for 'being a butcher', then Göring must be first in line to answer for Guernica, Warsaw, Rotterdam, London, Coventry, Lieningrad, Stalingrad, etcetera.

And let's not forget about Shan-Ghai or Nan-Jing.

 

Something that always struck me about Dresden, people talk about how evil it was to bomb refugees. I find that an interesting comment because it is a tactic that was proven by the Germans to be useful for spreading despair behind the lines in France in 1940.

Not justification but interesting.