Panzer III in France?

Was the Panzer III used in the invasion of France by the German army in 1940? I was always of the understanding that it was, however a poster on another forum has stated that the PzIII was used in Norway but withdrawn in February 1940, which seems odd as the invasion of Norway was April 1940.

 

I don't believe the Pz. III was used in Norway, but without any facts to back that up...


Several Neubaufahrzeug models were, however, used. Don't know of any real mode Panzeren used directly for the invasion.

A picture, PzKpfw NbFz VI [edit] IV.



Source: achtungpanzer.com

 

The whole thing seems a bit strange to me as I though Norway was largely an Infantry/Airbourne/Naval affair rather than involving armour to any great degree.

Any confirmation on PzIIIs in France 1940?

 

The german army used some 350 Panzer III during the campaign in France in 1940.

As far as I know there were however no Panzer III în Norway, just some Panzer I and II.

 

Hello,

ON 10th May 1940 the German troops engaged 349 Panzer III (from a total of 381 Panzer III available).
During the May/June campaign 71 additional (reserve or new production) Panzer III were engaged, which makesa total of 420 Panzer III.

In Poland the Panzer III were still often early ones with 13mm light armor. In France the Panzer III were Ausf.E/F mainly (30mm armor).

Of these engaged Panzer III, 135 were completely destroyed during the 1940 Western Campaign (32% complete losses) + many others damaged.

Regards,

David

 

Thankyou for your answers, that more or less confirms what I suspected although in far more detail than I coudl have known.

 

according to http://www.nuav.net/panzer.html there were about 7 to 10 PzKpfw III in Norway!

 

The poster on the other forum seems to contradict himself since, as you mention yourself, the invasion of Norway took place in April 1940. That would be two months before these tanks were withdrawn if he were correct. Besides, why would an entire tank type (which was scheduled to become the army's new MBT) be withdrawn from service on the eve of the great attack westwards?

 

But there were tanks involved, for propoganda purposes mainly.

 

Panzer-Abteilung z.B.V.40 was used, partly in Denmark and partly in Norway, the two first Kompanien and the Staff function being engaged in Denmark and the rest in Norway, with the units in Denmark beign shipped to Norway later on.

Pz.Kpfw.Is, Pz.Kpfw.IIs, kl.Pz.Bef.Wg.s and Neubau-Pz.Kpfw.IVs (there were no vehicle named 'Nbfz VI' or anything in that regard, the Neubau-Fahrzeuge were all given the roman number IV), but no Pz.Kpfw.IIIs. Their employment wasn't generally for propaganda purposes, outside of the norm, and they were engaged in combat in both Denmark and Norway (with casualties in Norway and possibly also in Denmark).

 

Thank you for clearing that up, Christian.

 

What's the story on this tank?I've never seen this one before.

 

I saw that post too and had a check...

AchtungPanzer ( http://pedg.org/panzer/public/website/pz8.htm )
says this;

"Few of early Panzer IIIs saw actual combat (with units of 1st, 2nd and 3rd Panzer Division) during the Polish Campaign or were troop tested (1937- February 1940). In February of 1940, existing number of early Panzer IIIs was handed over to NSKK for training purposes. Afterwards, only few Ausf D saw service with PzAbt zbV 40 (along with PzKpfw NbFz VI) during fighting in Norway in April/May of 1940, followed by service with PzAbt zbV 40 in Finland, 1941/42."

"Only 40 Ausf F tanks with 50mm KwK 38 L/42 guns were rushed into service before the end of the French Campaign and saw little or no combat."

This is probably where the guy got the idea from, as the ausf D apparently did not serve in France and the ausf F was too late.

As for the ausf E:

"In December of 1938, Ausf E (4-serie) entered production and 96 were produced by Daimler-Benz, Henschel and MAN when production ended in October of 1939"
"From August of 1940 until 1942, all Ausf E tanks were rearmed with 50mm KwK 38 L/42 gun mounted in an external mantlet housing one MG. At the same time, armor protection was increased by installation of 30mm armor plates to the hull front and rear as well as superstructure front. During service number of Ausf E tanks was also reworked to Ausf F standard."

Although the site does say:

"As of May 10th of 1940, Panzertruppe had only 381 Panzer III models in service, but 135 were lost during the Blitzkrieg in the West."

 

Achtung - Panzer ! is known to be inaccurate, so I wouldn't use it as a source. The German records list no Pz.Kpfw.IIIs in Norway, and he doesn't provide any information as to where he got that information.

Christian

 

As I said, this is probably where the guy got the idea from.

So, Christian, do you know how many Pz IIIs were in France during Fall Gelb? And if so, how many...

 

I think the 50mm variants were used in france (Read it in a book I have). I have never heard of any in Norway though

 

I don't have it with me, but I do at home. I'm sure I've posted it before, though.

Christian

 

349 Pz.Kpfw.III at the beginning of Fall Gelb. An additional 71 were sent as replacements. A total of 135 were lost.

The first Pz.Kpfw.III (5) was made 1940-07, so there were none of these in France.

Christian

 

Hello Ricky,

I gave previously the same numbers than Christian in the 5th post of this thread.

About the 5.0cm guns issue ... here is what I have compiled so far, having previously discussed that with other people.

The 5.0cm L/60 PaK38 was developed for the infantry as a towed weapon. The 5.0cm L/42 KwK was developed by the armored branch as a tank weapon. Hitler had directed that the L/60 be used in tanks, and when he found out that they were installing the L/42 instead he was furious. Production then switched over to the L/60 model. The first 5.0cm PaK38 left the factory in March 1940 (4 of them), and the inventory in the German Army was 0 in March, 2 in April, 2 in May, 20 in June and 29 in July. According to Werner Haupt's book about the German AT guns, the first 5.0cm Pak38 L/60 reached the units only at the end of 1940.
The first 5.0cm KwK left the factory in June 1940 (10 of them). Thus, at the start of the French campaign in 1940, the German Army had two 5.0cm PaK and no 5.0cm KwK on hand. By 1st June 1940, the numbers had risen to 20 5.0cm PaK but still no 5.0cm KwK. A very limited number (about 10 then) of repaired Panzer III Ausf.E/Fs, rearmed with the new 5.0cm KwK seem to have been deployed in the very last stage of the battle of France. Nonetheless the very small number and the actions in which there might have been involved are completely negligible.
According to Blatt G112 of 15th December 1940 "Überblick über den Rüstungstand des Heeres" : the first 5.0cm Panzer III Ausf.G left the production line in July 1940. During that month 21 were built and 17 of these accepted by the Army. According to the history of the Panzer Regiment 2 given on "Lexikon der Wehrmacht" for example, this regiment from 1.PzD received its first Panzer III with 5.0cm only in October 1940.

Regards,

David

 

Hi David,

I was just responding to Christian's post, and asking him to provide some alternative figures rather than just deny another source.

I hope that I caused no offense.

Ricky