Paris Riots

Nobody's opinion is worthless and you will treat your opponents in a debate with respect. The same goes for you, Al Amin.

 

Seconded.

El Pablo, where did you get that 80% statistic from? :-?

 

It was on the news a few years back a guest speaker on Sky News or something. My Cousins dad has studied the Koran etc. and also saw this. Anyway it doesn't really matter where it was from, you see it anyway - I had Pakistani kids runnin' around my street shouting Al Qaeda! Al Qaeda! Honestly. I am not making this up.

 

if these riots had happend in the third world we would call it a civil war.

best way to stop them. (since talking doesn't help) is to send 200.000 soldiers, armed with machine guns, mortars, bazooka's and flame trowers and about 1.000 armourd vihicles on those streets and let them shoot at everything that moves (after giving them one change to end it, what they will reject at once). bet that within five hours they will be begging us for peace.


it isn't the most nicest way to end it but they shouldn't torch that old lady :angry: :angry: :angry: ; trapped in a bus, overtrown with gasoline and then set to fire. damm even the nazi's shotted you first to death and then setted you on fire. they want a war, if a was the french president, i would give them one hell of a war and i would stop until they say sorry to the family of that old lady, and they better mean that :angry:

 

shooting the police?

google paris police shot

like dozens of them

I read 30 have been injured

 

Exactly. Send the hardcore close combat guys in! Give them a war, the are asking for it.

 

Except that not "everything that moves" is guilty. The first death of these riots has fallen today; it was an innocent man beaten into a coma which caused his death. He was trying to douse the fire in his garbage container. Imagine the army or the police having moved in and shot him - he would have been just as innocent...

It sounds so easy: there is an area that is making trouble, so you send in the army and the trouble will be over. But in reality that is where the trouble only begins. Who is guilty of what, and what is a justifiable penalty for that crime?

Personally, I am in favour of a very harsh handling of these rioters, as they deserve nothing more than a taste of their own medicine. But I fully realize that this will probably not be possible - politically, legally, and morally.

 

oke, i was a little bit impulsive to write "everything that moves" but that they beat people to death, torch them, destroy paris,... and nobody is punishing them, it makes me so angry :angry: .

just let them fire first with rubber bullets on large groups of protesters and then tell them that the next round will be with real ammo and that it's their call.
and no, the army can't bring the final solution but in this situation you can't agotiate. first the riots have to be stopped and then you can talk. and once the army can do their thing, who knows, they might become so afraid that they won't start a new riot anymore.

 

This is true. The rioters, as far as I know, have no clear set of demands or political goals, and if they did they would have to be redirected to the proper channels anyway. The riots must stop. But I do believe the French police is handling the rioters at least to some extent; an interview with some of these delinquents in the paper showed that they turned the facts around by claiming the police provoked the riots by their harsh treatment of the people in the suburbs. Obviously this doesn't make any sense (provoke the police so they will stop provoking you?) but it does show that the police is doing something - arresting rioters and driving inhabitants of the suburbs indoors. They seem to have imposed some sort of curfew.

 

and what started these riots? two boys of 15 and 17 commited a crime, the police is after them, they crowl in a electric box and get toasted. and then the police started all this. the fault lies with those two children and their families. to them i say, "leave your f*cking children at home when it's midnight"

arresting doesn't seem to work. more then 1200 people are already arrested and it still goes on.

 

Except that while the front few ranks of rioters might want to stop when they hear that, the rear ranks won't give a damn (if they even hear) and so the guys at the front have nowhere to go. And get shot.

 

One can argue that it is actually quite difficult to assimilate into French culture when one is a strict Muslim, simply because of the very strict church / state separation in place. This means that, for example, female Muslim school pupils cannot wear clothing they would consider appropriate to school (unlike in Britain, for example, where most schools with Muslim students have a 'muslim option' in their school uniform code that they have had approved by their local Council of Mosques - this case notwithstanding).

I can guess that many people will now say - so why do they go to France then?

For the same reason that lots of Jamacans, Pakistanis and Indians came to Britain - because their home country has big links with France, and it is much easier for them to go there then somewhere else.



I was discussing the French Riots with a French collegue of mine, and she claimed that the proportion of Muslims in France is approaching 50% - any basis for this claim?

 

So what? They go there because it's "easy" then they expect that the people and culture of France (or anywhere that ones goes as an immigrant) to change to suit them?

 

No, I'm just pointing out that saying 'you should integrate' is not always as easy as it sounds.

Compared to Algeria, France might seem a land of opportunity - and would you blame people for following up an opportunity?

 

Ricky wrote:

No. I would blame them for following up the opportunity then squandering it by rioting and setting fire to aged pensioners though.
Call me harsh if you must.

 

Ohh, you're harsh!

Well, if the opportunity goes sour and they are kept down as the poor minority by the country they hoped would help them succeed...

Although, just to make sure this is realised, riots such as we are seeing are really, really not the way to acheive anything beyond a deeper seperation between the 'native' French and the 'immigrants' and most likely a wave of repression in response.

Violence, as with most cases, is not the answer.

(as a side note - "and setting fire to aged pensioners" - one incident of this happening does not make this a common occurance. I remember certain people getting all annoyed at people blowing the 'looting & raping' in New Orleans out of all proportion... )

 

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Fortunately not.

Today statistics say that there are 5.700.000 muslims in France(total population 60.000.000)
Of these, some 1.500.000 have french citizenship and are perfectly integrated.

There are sources that say that there may however be up to 7.000.000 muslims in the country.(considering all the illegals).

On another note one must also say that those rioters are an infinate small part of muslims here most of which are perfectly law abiding people.

Maybe your colleague was referring to the percentage of muslims in various towns, which indeed could come close to 50%.

 

Quite possibly - she may just have been referring to the areas where trouble first started.

 

These riots will fade out. But it will happen again, and riots will increase in multitude and aggressiveness in the future. And there is little we can do about it because the main cause lies not in poverty, but in cultural polarisation. Multiculturalism has been the most effective recepy for conflicts and war throughout human history and the only mean to avoid conflict known to us is a totalitarian and oppressive goverment.

 

skua wrote:

I'm with you on everything except your prescription for avoiding the problem. That view is too pessimistic. If people can find common ground with which they can identify the differences eventually fade. That is what used to happen in America. when there was strong pressure to assimilate and the different ethnic groups did eventually lose much of their clannishness and identify with being an American.
Not an Irish American or an Italian American.
Of course it took much longer and more pain to begin to assimilate black people but contrary to what the news media and many black leaders (who thrive on conflict as it is the source of their power) would have you believe the process is farther along than in many European countries, who are new to the process. This process is differnt than multiculturalism..in fact it is nearly the opposite. It's the melting pot idea. Give up your old flag and your old loyalties and way of thinking and become an American, no matter your skin color or ethnicity. It has worked in the past and can work again just as soon as we can begin to do away with the whole multiculturalism that has resulted in what is sometimes referred to as the Balkanization of America.