This subject has come up recently, particulary the numbers of Soviet tanks ko'd or destroyed during WW2. I checked through Steve Zaloga's "Soviet Tanks and Combat Vehicles Of World War Two" to get the following. Now these are just approximate figures rounded up as it would take all day to sift through each model one by one. They are as near as I could get them. If these figures are incorrect or have since been ammended please feel free to correct me. No problems. Soviet tanks/SPGs built from 1940 up until mid 1945 = 112,000 Soviet pre war types available at the start of Barbarossa = circa 20,000 to 24,000. Lend Lease tanks/SPGs = 12,500 Added up, total of Soviet used tanks/SPGs potentially available for combat during WW2 = 144,500 Soviet tank strength available in May 1945 and the war's end = 14,000 This would mean 130,500 Soviet used tanks/SPGs were rendered ko'd, destroyed or inactive during this period. Now, we talked about Tigers reputedly ko'ing circa 10,000 enemy tanks during WW2 (the vast majority of which would have been Soviet). Even if this were true (which might not be the case), there are still another 120,000 Soviet tanks/SPGs to go around and shared between the various other German armour types, anti tank guns, infanty.....as well as other causes for their losses such as mechanical problems suffered by the Soviet armour crews themselves. They way I see it, there were plenty of Soviet used tanks/SPGs to go around. 10,000 really is a drop in the bucket. And we haven't even started on the western Allies' tank strength.
You can't put it up like that. Just because the tanks aren't in the fighting force doesn't mean that they've been destroyed. They could have been captured, or they could have been decomissioned, or for some other reason moved out of the active tank strength. The tank strength you are referring to could potentially also include only the tanks on the Western front (for Russia, that is), negating the tanks in Manchuria.
Read the last part of my line. I also wrote 'inactive'. That would include the points you raised. Ok, let's add another 10,000 (a far too high number). That still leaves 120,000 to be accounted for. Whatever way you look at it, the 'claims' of circa 10,000 tanks ko'd by Tigers is a drop in the bucket compared to the armour numbers the Soviets got through during WW2.......over 140,000 of them.
Problem is that we don't know how many were decomissioned and how many were destroyed. We would need to go through the Russian archives to know this. That 10,000 claims of the Tigers is a small portion of 120,000 tanks should of course also be seen in comparison that the Tigers weren't the most common German tank around.
Bean and Fowler ( 'Russian Tanks of World War II, Stalin's Armoured Might' ) calculates the total losses of Soviet tanks during WWII to be 83500 and estimates the kill/loss ratio on the Eastern Front to be 4.4:1 in favour of the Germans. They also give the total strenght of Soviet tanks in January 1945 as 14200, but they also very clearly state that this number does not include the 'permanent armoured force held on the Manchurian Front'.
Krivosheev gives the total of Soviet tanks/SPG's in service on 9/5/45 as 35,200. Total wartime losses to all causes is given as 96,500. Krivosheev's tables are the most detailed by far giving a yearly breakdown showing 35,000 Soviet tanks lost 1941/42 when they were at most 70 Tigers active for 4 months of 1942. Thus these 35,000 are not to be included in any Tiger total. The remaining 61,000+ were shared by AT guns, SPG's, Infantry, aircraft, mines ect.
Figures. What are the figures Bean and Fowler/Krivosheev give for Soviet tank/SPG production during WW2, numbers of pre WW2 armour available (at the start of Barbarossa) and the numbers of lend lease tanks/SPGs? Do they tally up with Zaloga? Zaloga gives an excellent breakdown of all Soviet armour types produced during WW2. Cheers fellas.
you have to remember that virtually all the pre 44 tanks were probably worthless and no longer used in front line troops due to the advances in armoured technology. Also all the pre 44 tanks would have done a lot of combat mileage and might not even be battle fit anymore. It might be worth looking at all the tanks the brits made and had available all through the war then comparing it to say pre Goodwood reports and compare the figures. FNG
You might also want to find out the number of tanks the Soviets gave to their allies during the war, which is proably not that huge of a number. For example the Soviets supplied 2 Polish armies wioth at least 1 heavy tankl battalion which had mostly IS-2.
Pre 1944 tanks were still used if available. The Soviets still used KV1s and T34 model 1943s in front line operations up until the war's end. There just weren't that many of them left. Their numbers were ground down through attrition. For example, a T34 model 1943 was one of the first Soviet tanks into Berlin. It still stands on the plinth near the Brandenburg Gate in Berlin. By late 1943 there were very very few earlier T34 models from just the previous year (model 1942s) left. This wasn't because they had done too much combat milage and were retired. It was because they were lost in the attritional battles of 1942 and early/mid 1943. Combat life for tanks on the eastern front wasn't long. The Germans had the same problems. By early 1944 there were relatively few Panzer IIIs left. Not because they were retired, but because they were mostly all wiped out. Same reason why very few early model Tiger Is survived much into 1944. Few Tiger I early models survived up to the summer of 1944.
Numbers Can you please tell me what he details he gives for Soviet tank production? I'm really interested. How many T34/76s does he give produced compared to T34/85s? What ratio do you have? KVs? SU76s? How many? How many numbers of T34/85 model 1943s and KV85s? Zaloga gives precise figures. I'd like to see if the figures Zaloga gives are incorrect. Cheers.
Quick scan of Krivosheev. Also posted another breakdown of production figures from Fleischer's book on Soviet tanks
Thanks. Thank you very much Michael. Those figures tally up spot on with Zaloga's figures in his books. I guess that's where he got them from. Much appreciated.
T-34-76 was maked during 1940 - 1944 on 6 engineering plants: number 183 in Kharkov (from 1940), in Stalingrad (from 1941), in Nizhni Tagil (from 1941), "Uralmach" plant (from 1942), number 174 in Omsk (from 1942), in Chelyabinsk (from 1942). By that time was maked 35312 tanks, included 1170 with flame thrower. T-34-85 was maked in in autumn 1943, on plant number 112 "Krasnoye Sormovo", but only 23 January 1944 they was added to one's armoury... But repetition work T-34-85 was began in January 1945. Before the end of war T-34-85 was maked 21048 tanks, included with flame thrower. All - 58 665 T-34s. At the beginning of the "Barbarossa" circa 1500 tanks T-34 (1225 units) and KV was in the Red Army. Circa 20000 tanks was T-26 and BT, they destroed of fire from the war-plane, for the most part. T-34 and KV was destroyed from 105 field gun, Flak 88, but the most units was break or the end fuel and leave tank crew. German industry was maked 14500 Pz 3 and Pz 4, 6000 Pz 5, and 1800 Pz 6. American industry - circa 40000 "Sherman", British - 5300 "Crusader", in addition to - "Li", "Grant", "Valentain" and others...
. any one know what happenned to broken soviet tanks left behind , there must have been some scavenging at the regiment and corps level , was there a recycling of the machines ? or was it simpler just to make new one .
the ones left behind were most likely taken in for spare parts. most of the time the tanks did not carry much equipment to begin with. so i believe the soviets were not big on manufacturing spare parts. (i stand to be corrected) it also comes down to what is easyier in the field, wait for a new tank to come up or patch up your tank with parts from wrecked tanks.
