Myth-Busting the Bismarck

Re: RE: Brismark attack

Agreed. Had the Germans attempted a landing anywhere on the English coast, the Royal Navy would have destroyed it or died trying. And the RAF would have given them all the air cover they needed to accomplish this, while also mounting attacks on the invasion forces. The plan I'm reading in this forum looks like something a young and inexperienced wargamer might concoct.

 

Your right cause I`m still only a kid.

Mic

 

Yeah, but now you're a corporal!

 

Don't worry Mic, you know much more than I did when I first joined. You'll learn

 

Don't worry about it a lot of people here have occasional flights of fancy. I think it was Simonr1978* who suggested the possibility of invading Ireland. On that occasion I was the one who shot the idea full of holes. :bang:










*Sorry Simonr1978 nothing personal you were just the only example I could think of.

 

Yeah that was me , it was initially in response to someone on another site asking how Seelowe could have been successful, and the only way I could think of for it to stand any chance of success was to avoid mainland UK altogether!

 

One does wonder if the Germans ever seriously considered such an option, given their history of invading neutrals.

 

The 20 miles across to Dover was too much for German capabilities. If that didn't get serious consideration, then I can guarantee an Irish operation didn't.
On a not terribly related note, the slight attention the RN gave to a US-UK confrontation after WWI included a generlized opinion that the Americans would win if they established a fleet presence in the eastern Atlantic. It makes me wonder if Eire might have been hospitable....

 

No

Until the late 30s the RN had bases on the Irish West and South coast. There was probably no space in which the Americans could slot in. Secondly by the mid 20s the Irish had most of what they wanted. Basically for the first time in centuries the Irish had more to loose than they could gain.

 

Perhaps. But people who want payback enough don't always think things through; ditto governments.

 

They would get troops across just as the Allies did on D-Day.

Mic

 

Yeah thats true too, I will learn more as I read and reply

 

There's a big difference between a cross-channel invasion with overwhelming air and sea superiority and one across the atlantic

 

Yes there are always those who let their hearts rule their heads but the Irish Government had some decidedly pragmatic people in it.

 

Fortunately for them, I would say.

 

Do you mean a transatlantic D-day into Eire by the US here?

 

I believe he means the Germans, Simon.

 

Oh dear...

Mic, the Germans in 1940 were a far cry from the Allied forces that invaded in July 1944. The Allies had total Naval and Air Supremacy (Due to the combined efforts of both US and Commonwealth air forces and Navies and their respective industries), LCIs, LCTs, LSTs, Mulberry prefabricated harbours, the experiences of Dieppe and Torch and a totally mechanised force.

The Germans had no proper landing craft only impressed river barges, would almost certainly quickly lose the naval battle to the numerically far superior Royal Navy, could achieve local air superiority admittedly but only over Kent, had an army that was still mostly reliant on horse drawn transport and a general staff who saw an amphibious invasion as nothing more than a big river crossing.

The Luftwaffe had no effective means to deal with Royal Navy capital ships either lacking both Armour piercing bombs and air launched torpedoes, whilst the Navy faced being committed to an all out battle in the shallow depths of the straights of Dover where arguably its greatest strength - the U-boat arm - would be effectively neutered due to the far from ideal operating conditions and the surface fleet overwhelmed.

Land anywhere other than the south Kent coast and you lose the Luftwaffe's advantage altogether because of the Bf109 and Stuka's lack of range. Land in the South east, and your landing sites are relatively few and predictable.

Not true at all, the Allied troops at D-day sailed across the channel in boats and ships. The German troops would have had to swim once the Royal Navy had sank their barges.

 

To get back to the topic, I read a book some time ago, which indicated that the brits were prepared to throw everything at Bismark, to the point of losing a number of sghips, with 1 at least on the verge of running out of fuel, and ,being at the extreme range of the luftwaffe, would have been lost before it could have been towed back to port. Remember, this was before refueling at sea.

 

Actually, it was not before refuelling at sea; the Japanese and American navies both practiced it at this time, and had been doing so for some time. The RN didn't, because it's bases were all so near to any possible scene of action that it wasn't thought necessary. Evidently no one had ever thought that a long sea chase like the one with BISMARCK was likely.