We all know that most animals are not sentient like us and cannot comprehend certain concepts (eg. they cannot wonder about themselves or the world they live in). However, if the mind of an animal such as a spider for example suddenly expanded/evolved to allow it to wonder about itself and the world or comprehend other concepts what would happen? I thought that the shock of the sudden realisation would make its loose its mind. Equally, what would happen to a human if he/she could suddenly comprehend some higher level concept? I guess no one really knows, so anyones hypothesis is valid. What does everybody think about this?
Well for starters there is abilty and realisation. If just like that you would suddenly have the capability to understand things far beyond the currently known laws of physics, it doesn't mean you will also know them. You would quite likely soon realize that you are learning much faster and things seem easier, but a mental explosion of knowledge would be unlikely. In another scenario where such higher level concepts were to be pumped into a less evolved brain it would likely either accept that information as facts and move on with a bit more knowledge or simply reject it due to lack of comprehension. If a lower evolved animal would be given the capabilty to comprehend complex ideas and also learn them shortly after... who knows? I think it would vary per species and individual..... Assuming the brain wouldn't need to expand or any other physical phenomena would occur that would kill the creature. A spider, to take your example, would quite likely find that even though it would realize the importance of its knowledge, the knowledge would be wasted on him, the best things it could apply it for are catching more flies, making more effecient webs and raising more offsprings. Nothing bad, but for the individual nothing that would completely alter its life. An ape however would be able to construct complex structures, maybe even educate members of troops, or communicate with humans (assuming he'd find those) and cause revolutionary development for himself, his species and (who knows?) maybe even interplanitairy relations. ...I'm nuts.... You're exact idea was? just the abilty? any type of lifeform (human/spider/tree)? purely philosophical knowledge? practical knowledge?
Errr, don't humans learn higher concepts all the time? For example algebra, geometry, calculus etc... One day you're X years old and you've heard the word (maybe) but the concept means absolutely nothing and then you discover that you're X+more years old and algebra not only makes perfect sense but is a wonderful concept in and of itself, likewise geometry and anything else you can think of... I used to think cubist art was rubbish (still do really ) but then I read about the history of cubism and I now at least understand and appreciate the concept behind it. Life is a series of revelations and steps to understanding higher concepts. Ian Stewart and Jack Cohen in some of their many books on mathematics and science (including Discworld Science for Terry Pratchett fans...) use the term "lies to children". I.e. things are explained in (basically) incorrect ways at each stage of your education so you can get a grasp of the concepts and then you're introduced to something approaching nearer the truth as you become more adept at manipulating the ideas that that concept has spawned... There's an old pharse (totally forget who said it) that discovery comes in three stages - Ha, haha and aah. The Ha is -hey there's something here, the haha is - oh so that's how it works and the aah is - now I understand where it fits with everything else. The best parts of life are the "aah moments"
Hey Oli, haven't seen you in a while, it's good to share a topic with someone who isn't sane again. Back on topic; Yes humans do tend to learn new concepts all the time.. up to the age of approximatly 70 in the better cases. The brain of the average human grows throughout its life allowing the storage and comprehension of increasingly complex information. What matters even more then brainsize though is the brain/body ratio. Large whales, rhinos, cows etc have large brains but a low brain/body ratio and have little intelligence, as where parrots for example have less than applesized brains but the high ratio makes them quite intelligent. I think what Pablo meant was what if an animal with quite limited intelligence such as a spider (deer, duck, frog) would suddenly be given a lot of intelligence/high level knowledge? You're point on humans is completely true though, I learned how to calculate what percentage of chemical x would dissolve in an acidic solution just last week and thought next to nothing of it, had you told me I would understand such formula some day last year I would have considered you mentally ill. What I think Pablo might be meaning (if not I'd say its still fun to explore) is what might happen if toddler would suddenly be given such a level of intelligence, or an adult gaining knowledge about something likewise completely beyond the boundaries of his previous understanding. Imagine what it would be like if tomorrow you would wake up and find out you understand how to timetravel, or that gravity can be cheated by drinking cooked milk.
With a welcome like it's good to be back. Hi Stix. Surely there's more to it than brain/ body relationship to determine intelligence? Do parrots have the ability for abstract thought? Just to put a complete damper on it (and paraphrasing the "Socratic argument" from the end of Dorsai!) - if a spider did become more intelligent (as we understand it) how would it know? how would it communicate what it had learnt to anything/ one else to let them know? what could it do with the intelligence? Fine, my spider now understands quantum physics better than Dick Feynman ever did... What good would it do the spider? It can't pass on the knowledge, it can't use the knowledge (although it would make a brilliant headline for some of the mass-market newspapers SPIDER BUILDS QUANTUM COMPUTER - PROVES EINSTEIN WRONG. I'd buy that one ). (Just a thought, if a spider did build a quantum computer would he connect it to the web???) IIRC (and I do in this case) Poul Anderson wrote an SF book on roughly this subject called Brainwave in which everyone and everything on Earth suddenly had their intelligence massively multiplied because the natural motion of the solar system/ galaxy brought us out of an intelligence-damping cloud - and found that upper limits of intelligence were naturally occurring throughout the universe and that we'd reached that level whilst inside the cloud. When the damping effect was removed then we had junior-school kids developing integration and differentiation while doing their homework... But it's that long since I read the book (about 30 years ago - oh I feel old) I can't remember what happened (although I vaguley recall that some of Earth's population decided to somehow go back to their previous intelligence level because they couldn't handle all the new thoughts and concepts. Personally speaking, bring it on... :lol: Ricky: Too deep for me.
For the sake of argument let's assume that the creature does not need to prove its intelligence through communication or achievements, it just is intelligent. As to what it WOULD do, who knows? What we can determine (assuming it doesn't discover how to exploit new laws of physics) is what it CAN do. Like I said and you almost pointed out, a spider has next to no ways of communication (that we know of) and it is physically next to impossible for it to construct anything beyond web or maybe a small tent of leaves and twigs. A monkey or elephant however is able to manipulate its enviroment on much larger scale yet with quite an amount of detail. On a second interesting thought elephants are on the list of creatures that are considered to have potential to develop into a dominant race should humans just disappear. They appear quite intelligent, have relatively large brains, a social structure and a manipulative organ (trunk), all of those are qualities that make it more likely that a species would become a dominant race. (most species of primates are on the list as well as dolphins and even certain birs (no there is no official list I can dig up)) Of all the things humans have begun to give measurements intelligence is one of the hardest to define, that's why we use the Intelligence Quota, simply comparing, instead of using predefined units. Also note that knowledge does not equal intelligence, but the two do seem to be slightly related. If I can calculate 3498543*9872459 without the help of machine am I smarter or more stupid than someone who can speak 30 languages? But yes there is more to it than that, according to current science the brain/body is quite important, but there is a minimum off total mass required as well, it also depends on what part of the brain is largest/most dominant and there's probably even more to it but I'm no brainsurgeon (there is this person I know from school who more or less specializes in brains, I'll go ask) It is generally accepted that humans are sentient and intelligent; I am aware I exist, you behave the same as me so likely you are sentient as well. (At least I think I'm aware I exist?, do I really think?, if not then do I still exist?) But for all we know sloths could be the most intelligent creatures out there, however they figured out the meaning of life and all laws of nature and found that it sucked( excuse my french). So they decided to play dumb and lazy so noone else would ever come to know. Which brings us back to the old question; is ignorance truly bliss and intelligence a doublesided blessing? Quite frankly if I were to gain a superboosted intelligence I wouldn't be calling the newspapers, heck no I'd keep it to myself, act stupid but secretly (keeping it secret would be easy due to superior intelligence) start taking over the stockmarket so I wouldn't have to work another day in my life. Chances are he would be smart enough to construct an unbreakable firewall and 100%failsafe virusscan and than connect it to the NET No but I do know about the lick-your-elbow-and-pwn-all-n00bs effect :kill: ...Pablo keep those thought coming
I think we've all at some point in our lives experienced a moment when we suddenly grasped a concept that was previously beyond us. This is generally brought about by either an enhanced ability to think in the abstract (through simple age & thought practice) or by having a good teacher to explain things to you. Such moments are impossible to define, even to remember, yet they are exactly what you seem to speak of (correct me if I'm wrong). Therefore I doubt it would make anyone lose their minds, unless that happens among humans as well. Mostly we consider ourselves smarter for understanding something we couldn't previously understand, which is not a negative effect... On these grounds you can't say anything either way, but the difference between knowledge and intelligence is obvious. The whole phenomenon of the idiot savant, autistic 'malfunctioning' human beings with a single incredible skill (like remembering what the weather was like on every single day of their lives), seems to prove this; while these people may know a tremendous deal about one thing or know one 'trick', this does not make them intelligent. Someone who has memorized the exact words of some great work of philosophy or similar does not necessarily understand it. It is however hard to define whether the tricks indicate understanding or only knowledge of the subject. This is all very stimulating.
Great ideas here. I'll try and clarify what I meant earlier - Take a concept like honor or friendship for example. An organism like an insect cannot comprehend this - its brain is limited. Again is there a concept greater than us? That only a super being could comprehend. Not a new concept in Mathematics or Science that some of you suggested, but a completely new kind of thought. What I was wondering was, if a lower organism comprehened a completely new concept, what would happen to it's mind?
I thought that the new concept and old brain would fight eachother. The New concepts would shun the old knowledge's primitivnes and break away forming a separate mind, equally, the old brain or instinctive brain would emerge in times of anger or fear - the raw animal emotions - like two magnets repelling eachother, leaving the organism with two minds or personalities, constantly grpappling for control.
As suggested earlier I think there are 2 likely outcomes to what you suggest; #1; The brain accepts this and moves on either using it or just taking it as a fact. #2; The brain fails to comprehend and simply rejects the information and again moves on.
The "problem" with being human is that we can't genuinely imagine non-human modes of thought or concepts (all aliens in SF have HUMAN characteristics, some exaggerated and some minimised to make them seem "alien", but I suspect if an author came up with a truly alien species and way of thinking most SF fans wouldn't bother to read the sequels because we would have no way of relating to their motivations, and hence the story would be uninteresting and/ or incomprehensible). So the question really is "is there a concept greater than us?" As for the spider gaining intelligence what I was (badly) trying say is that if the spider cannot demonstrate (either through communication or action) that his intelligence has increased then it might as well not be there - something which affects nothing around it and has no interaction with the world might as well not exist... Unless I could get a government grant to pyschoanalyse a spider for its world-view and perceived relationship with its environment and then after teaching it Greek or calculus run the pyschology tests again... Worth applying for do you think? And no we don't want the joke about spiders going deaf if you pull their legs off :kill:
My tuppence-worth We can't really equate an animal without 'higher thought' suddenly gaining it with Humans acquiring knowledge. Humans have higher thought, and expect to continually learn. A huge advance (suddenly knowing Quantum Physics while studying calculus) would be a shock, but not a huge one. If a spider suddenly got higher thought... Actually, I reckon one of 4 things would happen: 1) It uses its skills to catch more flies, make more babies and stay alive longer, and dies a happy, old spider. 2) It gets incredibly lonely, being the only one of its kind to have higher thought - imagine if you were the only human who was anywhere above the intellectual level of a Spider monkey. It gets frustrated, bitter, and might possibly invent spider suicide. 3) (this is partly like 2) It sees what spiders are like (ruthless predators, and that's it. It realises that it is also this. Higher thought wars with base instinct. It either 'invents' religion or goes slightly crazy. 4) It uses its powers to become King of all Spiders, and takes over the world! Bwah-ha-ha!
Other creatures do also learn as they live their lives, it's just that it hasn't been normalized for them as it has for us. Creatures with comparably sized brains should be able to learn new skills and concepts as easily as we do, if only they 'expect' or more accurately are expected to do so. Once, human beings were not self-aware and could not do any of the things we think are normal now, like use language, write, make fire, build machinery, invent religion. We can do all those things now, meaning someone at some point suddenly came up with them, normalizing the concept at least for his own community. Apparently they did pass on their knowledge, meaning they did not go insane or committed suicide.
But that was a gradual process, and the remainder of their species was also undergoing it. Imagine if you suddenly became self-aware but every other living thing, including the remainder of your species remained as animals. Animals do not go to school, do not expect to need to know how the universe works, or to get transferrable skills for their job, or even how to write poetry. Their learning experience is entirely in the realm of survival. How to get food easier, how not to get eaten. Animals in captivity who do not need to devote their life to surviving have learnt to use a paintbrush, but have they learnt how to express concepts through art?
My point is that humans started out in the same place as animals, probably even without self-awareness, and that someone somewhere has to have been the first to become self-aware. How would it come naturally to everyone at the same time? Same as the animals, human beings first invented things in order to survive, gather food more efficiently etcetera. It is food surplus that allows civilization to develop. This has to be attained first.
But with humans it was a gradual process, developing concepts etc. Imagine if x thousand years of slowly developing conciousness & concepts suddenly arrived in your head. One day, you're effectively just a machine for gathering food and spreading your DNA, next day you're pontificating on the meaning of life.
