Which leader do you think is more crazy?

About that quoting stalin and not hitler thing. How come nobody will really care that much if you quote stalin , but will get dirty looks and maybe some verbal abuse if you quote hitler ? This also goes into the field of discussing communism and fascism. Like people at my school wear those che geuvara chirts and even hammer and sickle ones, but if u wore a fascist shirt you'd get expelled or even beaten up.

Why is this ?


Communist regimes have been responsible for terrible human rights abuses and 10's of millions of deaths(more than fascist regimes), and yet people don't seem to get offended when you wear the shirts and say communism is all right

 

Check this topic out...

http://www.fun-online.sk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3884

 

iirc stalin also forbade the civillian population of stalingrad to leave ...figureing the red army would fight harder for the trapped famil;ys ...mostly it just caused the natives of stalingrad to die shivering and hungry in some icey rubble strewn basement..

 

Too many posts to read in a short time

Communism is al right, after all they won the war. If Hitler had won and the nazi system collapsed on its own, it would all be backward and the wearing of the swastika would be tolerated and not the red star.
Peronnally, i don't give a damm but i wear shirts with (almost) nothing on.

About the topic. Both Stalin and Hitler were crazy. For me they where both equally crazy.

 

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I can't believe I'm Defending stalin !!

Neither hitler nor stalin were " crazy "
they wanted to remold the world no a different pattern

Hitler's grand vision was a super darwinian selection ,
consigning all the lesser breeds to the fate of neanderthal man
leaving the planet to the winner ... the fittest ...

Stalin's grand vision was happy suburbs of factory workers , under the benevolent guidance of the party ,
singing happy songs about communism and the brotherhood of man ,
with not one false note .

Hitler's vision is scary because it's the one SO close to the truth
Stalin ultimate vision wasn't bad , just his methods and ideas to get there .



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No, no, no, no, no, and no. Stalin and Hitler were both crazy, giving stupid orders and everything. But Stalin killed WAAAAAAY more people than Hitler. He either shot or sent to the Gulag anyone who had been captured by the Germans because he thought that they were working for the Nazis. I think they were both paranoid AND crazy, and both evil men.

 

This is a direct result of now famous/infamous order "not one step back" (ni shyagu nazad). Order originated as result of massive surrenders an diorganised retreats in the summer/fall 1941. As such it was a breech of discipline to retreat or to surrender. After 1943 this order remained only for surrender as Stalin started to listen to his generals and accepted modern war of manouver and stopped meddling into orders once given (good example is retreat of red army south-west of Stalingrad in summer of 1942). Surrender was equated with treason (penalty was death or Shtrafbat).

After the war ex-POW and forced labourers had to be sorted as large numbers of Soviet citizens served in German sponsored units (ROA, 15. cossack cavalery corps (von Panwitz), Turkmenistan division, Caucassian division, SS division Galitzien (1. Ukrainishe)...). POW's and forced labourers were released and even accepted back into the Red army (off top of the head i remember major Gavrilov who was captured in Brest fortress). Conditions in camps were appaling as result of totaly devastated agricultural part of SSSR (mostly SSR Ukraine)... But conditions in sorting camps (and camps for POW) were not as horrible as those in forced labour camps for political prisoners or those who were found guilty of fighting in german units ( BTW quite a few of them survived).

BTW it is not easy to sort out around 10 million poeple.

 

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well Tiso , it's a fraction rosy

ANY russian soldier taken prisonner was deemed , on principle of having failed in his duty
he, she was elligible for a court martial and , or the attention of smersh ,
the forced workers were spared the military justice but still had questions to answers to the NKVD .
any suspicion of having tolerated or assisted the germans was a one way ticket to grief ,
having fought for them was a firing squad or hanging
in most cases the worst was often assumed ,
the attitude of the british was very cooperative as to the return of russians citizens , the U.S. much less so
many internaly displaced soviets were told they could not come back to their previous abode for a varieties of reasons ,
notorious was the ban on leningrad evacues who had to stay away from their beloved petersburg

Patton , stalin was possibly evil but not mad , it would be too simple to believe otherwise , in the snake pit of soviet politics ,
the rule was do unto them before they do unto you, at all time he was "rationnal" many witnesses testified to him being cool under pressure

Hitler was of a more exalted , artistic type but not mad either ,his vision was trully evil but perfectly rational ,
ask yourself the question

...... were are all the cousins of the human race.???...

they seemed to disapear around the time of our arrival :-?

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Point taken, but I still think that Stalin was a little paranoid, and I think you can say that is a form of insanity.

 

why didn't someone try to poison stalin?

 

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bumping off the big cheese is an endearing american institution , not a russian one

......they should have .....
as opposed to lenin whose protection was slack .
there was , to my knowledge , no attempt made on stalin life ,
his personnal security was peerless , all staff and guards carefully sorted , by example all the guards on close duty were georgians ,not russians
the food and his cooks were checked ...thoroughly
all his close associates were his men with everything to loose , he made sure they were hated by everybody , he had two chiefs of the nkvd liquidated ,
his theory was total fear , people though he could read guilty minds,
to be interogated by him was a pants wetting experience .
when he was driven to his country place there was a convoy of identical cars , all overtaking and shifting position in a coordinated patern , he slept in any of several bedrooms , his choice, at the last moment , this last precaution killed him .
he also was personnaly interested in hitler safety procedures and took some for himself .

some doctors who observed him thought he was paranoia , though not schizophrenic , he didn't heard voices
it's hard to know for sure , nothing was written down and his doctors were killed on a semi regular basis , the diagnostic is third hand evidence

his world was the normal high pressure suspicious environment one could find in a mafia meeting ,
the big boss kissing you is not nescessarily good news
there was a lot of people wanting his job , all of them not wanting him any good ,
to strike them down before they even though about it seems a bit harsh , but it was the rules of the games ,
they were all bastards anyway

the tragedy is he got millions of people killed in agony who were nowhere a danger to him .


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I personally think that the world is much better off without either Hitler or Stalin in it.

 

I'd add Mao to that list.

 

add pol pot , robespierre , julius ceasar .....

everytimes a society is in the throes of drastic change a " great man " appears usually in a process of elimination and a blood bath

a classic case was Mengistu Haile Mariam in ethiopia ,
a group of youg colonels having bumped off the old king aile selassie
they created this council , the dirge ,in the following months one by one the colonels were denonced as traitors by the others , taken outside and shot
just like musical chairs ,
during the final weeks , the members were coming fully armed , kalasnikov on the table to discuss sanitation or school books ,
colonel mengistu was the last one left

very "the good the bad and the ugly " except they were all uglies :smok:


of course the chase for traitors swept the country
it was the flull bloom of the cold war , the USA and USSR outbid each other for the friendship of such a great patriot :roll:



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I was originally going to go with a much longer list, but I decided to keep to the top three murderers who WWII links.

 

Without Robespierre, the French may never have adopted englightenment as the driving force of the Revolution... The ideal is pinnacle in western society even today

Without Stalin, Russia may have become the first Nazi colony

Without Mao, China might have be divided up between the Soviets and the Japanese...

Even Hitler.. Without him, we may never have learned the true value of human rights... For the holocaust has become the defining point of 'what to avoid' and illustrates to us just what we are capable of...

Horrible as they all were, I don't think one can say absolutely that the world would be better off without them... We learn from our mistakes, and theres noting to say that the world might very well have been alot worse

 

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Amen to that , if hitler came today , with genetics , atomics and the " multicultural problems " the roof would explode ,
lest's hope a great economic crisis doesn't set the powder on fire !

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Fine by me - the Enlightenment has not exactly created a wonderous world.

Debateable. Besides, if Hitler was not around either...

Nope. Without Mao Chiang would have had nobody else to fight, and so would have put up a better show against Japan. Besides, Japan never possessed enough military force to occupy all of China, and Russia was busy elsewhere. Oh, and Japan & Russia were rather less than trusting friends.

True. Though look how well that example is being taken. :roll:
People. :angry:

Agreed.

 

"We learn from our mistakes"? Since when?

 

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each generation learn from their mistakes , after half a dozen times

only to see the following generation start from scratch again


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