When Hitler declared war on the USA

Would America have come into the war against Germany when they did if Hitler had not declared war on them or would they have concentrated on Japan ?

 

America possible would have declared war on Germany but I have my doubts. Americas as a whole didn't exactly want to get involved in another European conflict. If you take in the account the sinking of Reuben James an American destroyer on October 31 would have been 41 I presume and the deaths of over 100 American sailor's lives. There was no reaction and by Roosevelt against this. If you consider the fact that America declared war on Spain on the basis of a forged letter, and they were reluctant when they were directly attacked it would give credit to the case that Roosevelt did not want to declare war on Germany.

 

I somewhat disagree with you Gunter. But you do make a very valid point.

I believe I read somewhere that Roosevelt was very aware that America was going to be dragged into WW2. I also think he wanted to go to war with Germany he was just waiting for the axis to do it for him. He had been attempting to build momentum in a understandably reluctant country for the coming war.

Also he and the US openly supplied the allies in the lend lease program before open hostilities commence with Germany.

Just my views Gunter but you do make a great argument that got me thinking.

 

Well if you go along with your point something that would support your idea is that the US began to increase the size of their military drastically during 1940-1 with the bulk of the new soldiers being conscripted into the army. The claim would be that the armed forces weren't strong enough to take on the Germans or something along those lines.

In 1940 the American government issued an act that was to raise the number of troops in the army from 200,000 to 1 million a 5 fold increase.

 

It's not accurate to say there was no reaction by Roosevelt on the sinking of the Reuben James. After that sinking :

Also :

This was in response to the attack on the Kearney by a U-boat. Of course there was already an undeclared war going on in the Atlantic between US and German naval forces.

 

That is if you assuming that America followed all the neutrality laws. Take for example flying by *accident* to Trenton, Ontario instead of Trenton, New Jersey a hell of a long ways off. Not to mention America was a hostile neutral towards Germany at best from the beginning.

 

I don' think that there is any question that the US was not in fact neutral despite the neutrality laws hence my comment "Of course there was already an undeclared war going on in the Atlantic between US and German naval forces."
Conducting an undeclared war could hardly be considered neutral.

 

Yes - but all of the above falls well, well short of the all-out war that ensued post Pear Harbor and Herr Hitler's subsequent declaration of war on the USA - which is what the question is about. I'm off to dig out some quotes re this topic - but it must be undeniable that these events at the very least hastened US full involvement.

 

fdr very much wanted to get into the war with germany asap ..he knew that if the uk collapsed the usa would have to stand alone against the axis of evil and without the aircraft carrier hms great brittain this task would be almost impossible ..fdr pretty much forced the japanese to attack the usa with his embargo ultimatum..and as noted ,we were already in a shooting war with the uboat men anyway...

 

I do not doubt that Roosevelt wanted to have a war against Germany but he did not want to be responsible for the war, he wanted to be forced into the war.

The Japanese were forced to attack, they were discontent with what they earned after WWI, their Navy was limited to be smaller than the Americana and British in the Pacific which the Japanese were angered by because it limited their power in their sphere of influence not to mention they were allies when they were forces into that naval treaty. Not to mention America was pretty much blackmailing Japan by their embargoes blocking both oil from getting to Japan and just as importantly stopping the scrap metal that was bought by the Japanese from America which was thus melted and used to created weapons.

 

I don't agree that the Japanese were "forced" to initiate a war with America. Saying that they were forced to do this leaves one with the impression that not only was their no other choice but that under the circumstances it was the wise thing to do. Obviously for Japan's military leaders (not Hirohito) and for millions of dead Japanese, Chinese, Fillipinos and others in retrospect it was an exceedingly bad decision.

 

It's been my understanding that the Japanese knew pretty much from the moment they began their expansion into the CBI that they would inevitably face open warfare with the US at some point sooner or later and that they were always planning for that eventuality.

The embargos possibly forced Japan's hand sooner than they would have liked, but I also believe this happened far earlier than Roosevelt would have liked too.

In any case as the reason Japan required these materials was largely to supply their Army already rampaging through China I really can't feel a great deal of sympathy for them being "Forced" to attack the US, if they hadn't launched their hideously barbaric military campaign, the international community (Including the US), wouldn't have been forced to take steps against them.

Japan forced the US to take measures to force them to attack.

 

Above I was referring to the 1922 Washington Naval Treaty which the Japanese were forced to sign.

The Japanese made the same gamble they made in 1905 against the Russians where they attacked their fleet at anchored at the harbour. They also supposedly studied the British attack on Tarantino (not sure about the spelling), and applied some of the lessons learned from Tarantino to the attack on pearl harbour.

We must also realize that Japan has been at war since the mid 30s against China (Manchuria). Also that Japan was not and could not possibly be self sufficient.

The Second World War by John Keegan

If you ask me America brought the attack upon themselves, they provoked an enemy that was becoming more desperate and confident in their ability to fight. Japan needed oil and others materials for war which the embargoes supply was impeded. America offered the deal of if you are a good boy as we see fit we will life the embargoes which in my eyes in clear and blatant blackmail.

Hitler also believe that Japan would be victories against the Americans
"Now it is impossible for us to lose the war: we now have an ally who has never been vanquished in three thousand years"
Quote above is what Hitler supposedly said to Jodl and Keitel after hearing news of the Japanese attack.

 

Gunter:
Blackmail?
I think of it more along the lines of allowing diplomacy every chance to succeed.
The "Sons of Nippon" were running rampant in China... this was perhaps seen as a "peaceful" way to rein-in the marauding Japanese as they expanded their Empire. That expansion was dependent upon securing critical strategic supplies of POL, rubber, steel, etc. to fuel their war-machine.
The USA was very short-sighted in selling so much of our high-quality scrap-iron and steel to Japan. The Japanese gambled we Yanks didn't have the belly--or means--to fight a war on two-fronts. They were quite mistaken.

Tim

 

So an agreement to end all future expansion into China in exchange of aviation fuel is not worth peace is it?

 

Blackmail? You can't be serious, think about it for a minute. By this reasoning Germany had no option but to go to war when the British and French tried to "blackmail" them over Poland. After all the Germans were merely trying to obtain "living space" and raw materials necessary for their industry, the sane as the Japanese. How can you reasonably argue that war in the Pacific was the fault of the US?
The embargo was a diplomatic act short of war. The Japanese had a choice, stop the agression, return to the 1937 borders and trust that the west would follow through, or go to war. That the Japanese were the ones looking for a war is hard to argue against, they just couldn't decide who to attack. Almost to the last minute the question was wether to attack the western powers or the Soviets. Roosevelt believed he had learned the lessons of isolationism and appeasement, and was determined not to repeat the mistakes.
I would agree with you that Japan's agressive and imperialistic ambitions made war more or less inevitable, but it was the Japanese who chose war, not the US.

 

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It should be noted the very strong anti-intervention mood of the american public , as expressed by congressman Hamilton Fish II
from the distinguished black Harlem 369Th reg.
the abusive anti-german propaganda of WW1 had the effect of turning off the many german-american of the mid-west
The feeling of condemnation for european stupidity was deep
" there they go again "
the country was just off a deep recession , pro nazi opinion was held by a lot of respectable and eminent americans ,
the pacifist movement was strong on the left and in the established religious circles ,
really the only people who hated hitler were some central europeans ethnics and the communists .

There was no pressure to intervene , even the lend leave was pushing things to the limits


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Britain and France were forced to declare war against Germany because of the treaties that they signed with Poland. Also the only reason France declared war was because Britain had already done so, the French were hesitant to go to war and would have gladly just sat there without declaring war. Not to mention that according to the treaties they signed with Poland they were supposed to declare war on Russia but I dont think they really did anything there, they had plans to send Poles to fight in Finland but that was about all.

You are also forgetting a stepping stone for the invasion of Russia, what the German propoganda called "liberation of the Germanic people", ie. Danzig is German where over 90% of the population was German.

Although that is true and I agree with you but, I see the embargoes as a provocation against the Japanese.

-Japan was already discontent with how little land they were given after WWI
-they were angry about having been forced into a treaty that limited their navy in their sphere of influence, which deeply angered the militaristic leaders, who questioned the treaty from the beginning of why their Navy has to be smaller than that of Britain and the US in the Pacific
-the embargoes just served to anger them, not to mention it was going to starve the nation of fuels not only for the military but for the civilians as well

The same was the US was partly responsible for Chinese intervention into the Korean war. America indirectly alienated, and harassed the nations in Asia to do what they want, to best help themselves and not anyone else.

 

had germany not declared war on usa...im pretty sure the usa would have put its full might against japan..many americans would have been more than a little upset had the usa declared war unilateraly against germany..when they had been attacked by japan...result japan would have been defeated much earlier and germany much later..imho

 

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I would agree that the U.S. government measures against japan were unfriendly
but they were taken because of japan aggression against a good friend of the U.S. .. china ,
japan whining was thus pretty much to be discounted , it's not like if they were very friendly anyway

Hitler being dumbarsed and declaring war on the U.S. was pure gravy
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