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Military disasters of the Second World War.

Discussion in 'WWII General' started by SolomonSullivan, Jan 16, 2020.

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  1. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    The reference from me was that most formations in AGC were destroyed, not unlike the aforementioned 1942-43 disasters, not necessarily that they stayed destroyed.

    I am also well aware that many were reformed, as I said in my comment. The subject of a autobiographical book I helped to edit several years (Eastern Inferno, Alexander and Kunze, 2010 Casemate Publishers) served (and died) in the 299th ID. Trust me, I know what happened to it.

    I'm not sure what your "Not exactly" statement means, in that your subsequent data supports what I stated.
     
    Slipdigit, Jan 23, 2020
    #41
  2. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    With his defeat coming at the hands of Ernest Harmon?

    He got "reformed" as 2nd Army CO, with the accompanying elevation in rank.
     
    Slipdigit, Jan 23, 2020
    #42
  3. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    I'm probably not being clear...in the case of Tunisia and Stalingrad, except for the relatively few air evacuations (and the one guy that walked out of Stalingrad), no one got out.

    Good, so then the Divisionsstab and rear elements escaped - more or less - and became the headquarters for Korps-Abteilung G, along with other remnants of the division and 260. and 337. ID.

    It was very much like what happened in the aftermath of the Normandy breakout to the units of Ob.West, but not so much like what happened after Stalingrad and Tunisia.

    Sorry, but again I may not have been clear, but I meant exactly "not exactly"...the aftermath of what happened to the divisions after the destruction of HG-Mitte were more akin to what happened on the western front at nearly the same time, but were "not exactly" like what happened in Stalingrad and Tunisia.
     
    RichTO90, Jan 23, 2020
    #43
  4. bronk7

    bronk7 Well-Known Member

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    ..so I take it many KIA/POWs? do you have those stats? ''utterly destroyed'' = many KIA? and, more importantly, during what time period? I don't consider wiped out if the unit was in combat a long time
     
    bronk7, Jan 24, 2020
    #44
  5. R Leonard

    R Leonard Member

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    Operation Reservist gets my vote.
     
    R Leonard, Jan 24, 2020
    #45
  6. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    I did some digging in my files. Part of the problem was that BAGRATION truly wrecked HG-MItte and it took a while before the Germans had a good handle on just how much they had lost.

    On 21 July, three divisions were formally disbanded, the 95., 197., and 256, ID, although the last was reformed as the 256. VGD on 17 September by renaming the 568. VGD, which was already forming at Truppenübungsplatz Königsbrück, so it was a bit of a cheat. :) Those three divisions, plus 14. ID, which was in Heeresgruppe reserve at the start of the battle, made up VI. Armee-Korps, which was effectively annihilated. It was later assessed that just 58 officers and 376 men of the three divisions (most of the service support elements of 14. ID managed to get out) escaped and made it back to German lines between 10 and 22 August. The corps commander, General Pfeiffer was KIA on 28 June. It was estimated that 4. Armee - not including VI. AK - lost 130,000 men between 22 June and 10 July...and that was probably an underestimate.

    By mid-August as things began to clear up, it was remarked that most of the divisions in HG-Mitte, besides those written off, had largely intact artillery and divisional service support elements totaling 5,000 to 6,000 men, but the infantry units typically totaled just 500 to 800 men rather than the 5,000 to 6,000 they should have had too.

    On 1 August, 260.ID. was disbanded, followed by 4. LW-FD, 6. LW-FD, 57.ID, 110.ID, 134.ID, 196.ID, 206.ID, 246.ID, 267.ID, 296.ID, 383.ID, and 707.ID. on 3 August and 357.ID on 14 August, all from HG-Mitte. Of those, 246. ID was reformed on 15 September as 246. VGD by renaming 565. VGD and 357. ID was reformed on 28 August by absorbing the Schatten-Division (an organization intended to refresh a combat division, which consisted of two weak infantry regiments, an artillery battalion, and minor service units) "Breslau".

    Overall, losses for the Ostheer as a whole were at least:

    Last ten days of June - 16,923
    July - 123,809
    August - 543,695... It appears perhaps 350,000 were actually incurred in August, the rest earlier.
     
    RichTO90, Jan 24, 2020
    #46
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  7. bronk7

    bronk7 Well-Known Member

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    disregard
     
    bronk7, Jan 25, 2020
    #47
  8. Slipdigit

    Slipdigit Good Ol' Boy Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    SMH

    From German Order of Battle, Volume One: 1st-290 Infantry Divisions in WWII, Samuel W. Mitcham, Jr., Stackpole Books, 1985.

    I went down the list of infantry division assigned to Army Group Center and culled quotes from the short operational history for each division. I went straight down from the start of the list and did not cherry pick to exclude divisions that did not supported my statement.

    I don't it really matter what you think vis-a-vis time in combat

    Pay close attention to the comments of 131 and 134 Infantry Divisions.

    6 Infantry Division pg 42 "...forced to surrender..."
    7 Infantry Division pg 44 "...escaped the near annihilation of Army Group Center."
    12 Infantry Division pg 51 "...surrendered and no combat elements escaped."
    45 Infantry Division pg 90 "...largely destroyed.."
    57 Infantry Division pg 104 "...destroyed during the first week of July, 1944."
    95 Infantry Division pp 157-158 "...overwhelmed near Vitebsk and only remnants escaped."
    102 Infantry Division pg 165 "...escaped the near disaster..."
    110 Infantry Division pg 168 "...it was destroyed near Bobruisk."
    129 Infantry Division pp 181-182 "...it was withdrawn from battle and disbanded as a combat division."
    131 Infantry Division pg 183 "...unlike most of the division of Army Group Center - it escaped total destruction."
    134 Infantry Division pg 188 "The 134th was encircled near Bobruisk and was destroyed there, along with much of the 9th Army on 29 June, 1944."
    197 Infantry Division pg 216 "...and most of it was destroyed in the huge Soviet offensive in the summer of 1944."
    206 Infantry Division pg 255 "...only a few of the divisions 12,000 men escaped , however; the division was overwhelmed and destroyed on June 28."
    211 Infantry Division pg 261 "...pulled out and reformed..."
    246 Infantry Division pg 291 "...was encircled and destroyed at Vitebsk in the late June, 1944."
    252 Infantry Division pg 297 "Here it escaped after desperate fighting against vastly superior Soviet tank and mechanized formations."

    i can continue, but I don't think it would be prudent to keep beating a dead horse like that.
     
    Slipdigit, Jan 25, 2020
    #48
  9. bronk7

    bronk7 Well-Known Member

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    ...the OP gives 2 very different examples...one battle lasting about 4 days, is this correct? and the other about 4 months? ....
    yes, the time period matters.....the OP has 2 very different examples--1 lasting 4 days and 1 lasting 4 months --
    ...those numbers are nothing compared to what happened to the Japanese
     
    bronk7, Jan 25, 2020
    #49
  10. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

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    Well going back to the OP-spam, yes there are examples of the US and Commonwealth inflicting similar "disasters" and often in the same time frame.

    So for Stalingrad there was Tunisia. Both near complete encirclement disasters.

    For BAGRATION and the near destruction of HG-Mitte there was NEPTUNE and its aftermath resulting in the near destruction of HG-B and AG-G. Not complete encirclement disasters but pretty close.

    Then there was the second encirclement and almost complete destruction of HG-B in the Ruhr Pocket.

    If you want smaller cases then there was the near encirclement and destruction of 5. FJD at the hands of the 90th ID.

    I'm not sure what of anything that all proves, but then it is all in response to spam anyway... :D
     
    RichTO90, Jan 25, 2020
    #50
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