Welcome to the WWII Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the community.

Hollow charge ammunition for the M1 75 mm pack howitzer?

Discussion in 'Allied Heavy Weapons' started by Riter, Apr 24, 2020.

  1. Riter

    Riter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2020
    Messages:
    949
    Likes Received:
    255
    I'm reading Koskimaki's Battered Bastards of Bastogne. He mentions the 463 Parachute Artillery Battalion and its small 75 mm pack howitzers knocking out 8 out of 10 German tanks at Bastogne. They used hollow charge ammunition to perform the task. I never heard of such a thing for those little guns (we had one in the SF Presidio that was used ceremonial purposes). Can anyone tell me more about the ammunition? I know about hollow charges, but for a 75 mm howitizer?
     
    Slipdigit likes this.
  2. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Messages:
    26,461
    Likes Received:
    2,207
    75 mm is not a small gun. the other thing what German tanks coukd tahe Pz II-IV not Tiges which had 10 cm of protection.Hollowv chage? does not sound tank ammo to me.
     
  3. Riter

    Riter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2020
    Messages:
    949
    Likes Received:
    255
    It was the M1 75 mm howitzer. Not small enough for me to stuff down my trouser pocket and too big for me to load onto a trailer on my own. One in the hands of the US Marines:Here is a picture of in being [​IMG]

    Here is a picture of in being used by Nationalist Chinese troops:

    [​IMG]

    You can see it is a lot smaller than the standard M2 75 mm field howitzer. As for the hollow-charge ammunition, I'm just reciting that from the book and asking for verification that such ammunition was available for the M1 in WW II. BTW, we had a section (2 guns) at the Presidio of San Francisco. They were working pieces and were used for memorial events.

    Contrast the above to the M2 105mm howitzer

    [​IMG]
     
    Kai-Petri likes this.
  4. von Poop

    von Poop Waspish

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2006
    Messages:
    6,300
    Likes Received:
    1,919
    Location:
    Perfidious Albion
    Hogg: Three ammunition types: HE M48, Chemical M64 & HEAT M66 (The HEAT being the only fixed round).

    M66 HEAT spec: M62 base-fused, 1lb Pentolite, Plate penetration up to 3.5" at any range.

    Remarkable little gun, isn't it.
    There's a group of US airborne reenactors that we've watched do a fantastic display with one on several occasions. Quite the rapid fire punch for such a diminutive item.
     
    Slipdigit, Riter and Kai-Petri like this.
  5. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Messages:
    26,461
    Likes Received:
    2,207
    Gret photos Riter. However considering the shooting betweeen Pz IV and Tiger might not do a thing
     
  6. Riter

    Riter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2020
    Messages:
    949
    Likes Received:
    255
    Concur. 17 pdr FTW, but I want to know if hollow charge was available. It's the first time I've heard of it.
     
  7. Riter

    Riter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2020
    Messages:
    949
    Likes Received:
    255
    thanks.
     
  8. GaryJKennedy

    GaryJKennedy New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2016
    Messages:
    24
    Likes Received:
    16
    If you search for the "Catalog of Standard Ordnance Items, Volume 3" you can find the details for the M66 shell described above.

    "This projectile embodies the 'hollow charge' or 'Munroe' principle. It is a remarkable armor-piercing round and will penetrate approximately 3&1/2-inches of armor."

    Gary
     
    Kai-Petri and Riter like this.
  9. Terry D

    Terry D Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2015
    Messages:
    602
    Likes Received:
    264
    Location:
    Huerta, California
    In August 1944 the US Army in France conducted a series of tests at Isigny to determine the effectiveness of various anti-tank rounds. The types tested were the British 17-pdr, US 75mm (M3 gun, M61 AP), the US 76mm, and 75mm howitzer M66 HEAT. I don't have all the details at hand (Nicholas Moran covers the tests on his site) but the tests did determine that the 75mm M66 gave much better performance than the 75mm M61. If I recall, there were cases in the Pacific where Marine tankers fired the 75mm M66 from the M3 guns in their Shermans, presumably in an effort to get better penetration against Jap bunkers. At least one British armored regiment in NWE (lost the reference) experimented with the M66 in its Shermans as well. Maybe they had to use the M66 in cases for the 75mm gun, don't know. Anyway, the M66 seems to have offered at least a possible emergency option to upgrade the performance of the M3 gun, and in light of the difficulties the Allies had with German armor in NWE I am a little surprised that the option was not taken on any large scale.
     
    Kai-Petri and Riter like this.
  10. harolds

    harolds Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2011
    Messages:
    1,898
    Likes Received:
    372
    Hollow charge shells are effective IF they can be detonated at the right distance from the target surface AND while (more or less) perpendicular to the target surface. The problem firing them from cannons is that the shell's rotation tends to dissipate the explosive jet.
     
    Riter likes this.
  11. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2015
    Messages:
    2,562
    Likes Received:
    1,036
    Terry, the second Isigny test was 19-21 August and was just of the 17-pdr and 76mm, the former with AP and Sabot and the latter with APC and HVAP. The first Isigny test was 12-30 July, testing:

    Launcher, Rocket, AT, 2.36″ – Rocket, AT, 2.36″, M6A1
    Launcher, Grenade, M8 – Grenade, AT, M9A1
    37mm Gun, M6, Mounted on Light Tank, M5A1 – APC M51
    40mm Gun, M1, AA – AP M58
    57mm Gun, M1 (ATG) – APC M86, and Sabot
    75mm Gun, M3, mounted on Medium Tank, M4 – APC M61 and HEAT M66 (Special)
    3-inch Gun, M5, mounted on Motor Carriage, M10 – APC M62 with BDF M66A1, and AP M79
    90mm Gun, M1A1, AA – AP M77
    105mm Howitzer, M4, mounted on Medium Tank, M4 – HEAT M67

    The findings for 75mm Gun was:

    6) 75mm Gun, M3, mounted on Medium Tank, M4

    a) APC M61 will penetrate the sides and rear of the ‘Panther’ Tank up to 1500 yards. APC M61 at 200 yards will not penetrate the front armor of the ‘Panther’ Tank.

    b) HEAT M66 (Special) will not penetrate the front glacis slope plate at 500 yards (see assumption made in paragraph 1c).

    No, the Marines to my knowledge did not use M66 as a substitute for APC M61. That may be a conflation of Tarawa, where the surviving Medium Tanks M4 on Betio ran out of standard 75m M48 HE and M61 APC for Gun M2 and M3 and substituted 75mm M48 HE for Howitzer M1, M1A1, M2, and M3. The thing is the howitzer complete round is 3.1 inches shorter, so they had to use a stick as a ramrod to get it to seat in the chamber...and the flashback was apparently seriously awesome inside the turret. :D It also reduced accuracy at anything other than very short range, so it would be true desperation to try to do the same with the howitzer's M66 round. M66 was never manufactured for the 75mm gun, because the higher velocity spin severely degraded the penetration.
     
    Terry D likes this.
  12. Terry D

    Terry D Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2015
    Messages:
    602
    Likes Received:
    264
    Location:
    Huerta, California
    Thanks, very enlightening. It explains a lot.
     
  13. Carronade

    Carronade Ace

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    3,278
    Likes Received:
    846
    The penetration of HEAT should be independent of range, should it not? If you hit X armor at Y angle it will penetrate or not.

    As a couple of people have mentioned, spinning decreases the effectiveness of a shaped charge. Presumably it was still better than the penetration of a solid shot from a low-velocity howitzer. The French came up with an interesting concept for the 105mm gun on the AMX-30; the hollow charge was surrounded by bearings so it did not spin although the shell did.

    Another interesting concept was HESH (High Explosive Squash Head) or HEP (High Explosive Plastic), a thin-cased shell filled with plastic explosive with the fuze at the base. When it hit, the plastic would spread out on the surface of the target and then explode, apparently quite devastating, and effective against heavy or light armor, buildings, whatever. It was commonly used in recoilless rifles like the British 120mm BAT series.
     
  14. RichTO90

    RichTO90 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2015
    Messages:
    2,562
    Likes Received:
    1,036
    Yes, of course...as long as fuze operation is correct and stand-off distance is optimal, which was the biggest problem in early heat warheads. Did I say anything different?

    Meanwhile, the report should have said "at any distance", but that should be obvious. The only "hollow charge" I know of in the American arsenal that could penetrate the front of the Panther was 105mm M67.

    Indeed, as a number of German Panzer from 15. Panzergrenadier-Division found when they encountered the 466th PFAB on 25 December 1944.

    Yep. Unfortunately developed postwar.
     
  15. JanBallk

    JanBallk New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2020
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    To be honest, I don't really watch historical films and I don't know much about weapons of that time. I recently purchased a self-defense weapon and decided to learn more about my weapons, safety techniques, and all about storing ammunition. By the way, about ammunition... My neighbor's garage exploded ammunition due to improper storage. The conditions there were completely unsuitable for this. This case scared me and I found a great review on bulkmunitions.com about the proper storage of ammunition and studied it thoroughly. The neighbor is fine, he was not at home at the time.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2020
  16. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Messages:
    26,461
    Likes Received:
    2,207
    I have read about the German tank armor later in war. They had more problems as they did not get anymore the "minerals" that would strengthen the armor steel. A straight hit might cause cracks and after that even Panthers could be one straight shot away from destruction.

    From tank personnel books I also learnt that even Tigers when getting a hit in front the armor could take it but the walls could inside the tank send small metal particles and penetrate the skin of the crew and perhaps confuse them from Action for a while.
     

Share This Page