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Something often overlooked...

Discussion in 'Land Warfare in the Pacific' started by brndirt1, Apr 27, 2010.

  1. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    I wonder how this would equate to the large bag of Japanese prisoners the Soviets took in August Storm. Then again, how many were natives & how many were Japanese.

    And, the Americans took several thousand prisoners at Okinawa. Most, I believe were civilians though.
     
  2. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    A Marine veteran of the Okinawa battle told me that "civilians didn't have to surrender, but the army guys wouldn't let them." He told me of IJA men who threw grenades into caves where they had herded civilians so as to "avoid the shame of surrender" as if children should be ashamed. Hard to get your head around that.
     
  3. Carronade

    Carronade Ace

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    Showing up for spear training when you're ordered to and doing it in combat are different things too. Those ladies don't exactly look like tigers ready to pounce.
     
  4. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Yeahbutting noted.
     
  5. belasar

    belasar Court Jester

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    The image reminds me of footage shot in Germany of Volksturm parading with a hodgepodge of weapons. It was largely propaganda that did not accomplish very much, but even a few incidents considering the animosities in the Pacific war might trigger a mass killing of Japanese civilians 'just to be safe'.
     
  6. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    The problem was that Gen. Anami had officially inducted all men between 16 and 60 and all women between 18 and 45 into the military. So "civilians" were relatively rare in Japan at that point. The government made their population into an endangered species.
     
  7. Class of '42

    Class of '42 Active Member

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    Those women should of stayed in the fields collecting rice or something...would of been more useful than possible "cannon fodder" for some deity on a horse.

    Hirohito on a horse.jpg
     
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  8. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Actually, they did both. Mandatory defense drills in the mornings and then off to do a day's work.
     
  9. bronk7

    bronk7 Well-Known Member

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    ..male soldiers and female civilians are totally different ....when humans see or feel the effects of flamethrowers, they change their tune very quickly
    ...sharpened stakes vs flamethrowers/etc?
     
  10. von Poop

    von Poop Waspish

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    As the much-missed Clint started the thread with; it's hard to overstate the contemporary Japanese devotion to the Emperor.
    Divine Right monarchies have a special power with the absolute binding of population, figurehead/deity & state. This wouldn't just be fighting for your Emperor, but for your God as a direct representative on earth.
    As even the most modern militaries have found, that kind of religious fervour can have a remarkable impact on the effectiveness of such fighters.

    The US casualty projections for a mainland attack ran to millions, with almost a million deaths. To dismiss the Civilian defenders so easily is to fail to grasp just what those projections were getting at (projections made by people with probably the greatest experience of amphibious assaults the world has ever known).

    Those bombs weren't dropped without good reasons.
     
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  11. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    I used to argue with people about the bombs. But there are new generations of idiots coming down the pike. You lot take over, please.
     
  12. Christopher67

    Christopher67 Member

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    I understand that at least...

    But...

    I thought I would brush up on the subject with a re-viewing of the BBC "World at War" doco no.24, "The Bomb"

    As per the title of this thread "Something often forgotten", I rediscovered the fact that Japanese surrender negotiations were in fact, moving forward at an ever increasing pace.

    The problem was that with honour definitely at stake, brought on by the "long forgotten" cult of Emperor Worship incidently, these negotiations had to be in secret.

    Harry Truman, in line with his policy of "getting tough" with the Russians, was also doing the same thing with the Japanese by continueing to demand 'unconditional surrender," Truman's attitude was something the Russians, particularly Molotov, were having problems coming to terms with. Stalin had felt that FDR was someone to be trusted, "a friend" even, but Truman, talking in "plain old Missouri language" upset the balance of personmalities that reached their zenith at Yalta
    John J Mcloy was telling the President that "We ought to have our heads examined" if America did not offer the Japanese government and Emperor a way out of the war by a negotiated settlement. Mcloy advised Truman that the Japanese government should be told "that they could keep the Mikado", and suggested a "demonstration" of what "The Bomb" could do. Mcloy said that the mention of this closely guarded secret seemed to shock all those present, with Henry stimson advising to agree with Mcloy, only to be overruled days later by another Truman aide. The feeling seemed to be to "preserve the effect on our negotiations with the Russians. Those negotiations has turned sour at Potsdam, after Yalta was such an agreeable atmosphere.

    The sticking point was Poland, and probably a misunderstanding of exactly what the Western Allied powers understood to be Russian intentions in Eastern Europe as a whole, and Poland in particular. By Potsdam, Stalin had already signed a 20 year friendly treaty with the Polish government in waiting.

    Stimson felt that the effects of the Bomb on negotiations with the Russians would be more than enough to keep them out of the Pacific.

    When Okinawa was invaded in April 1st 1945, it also coincided with a new Cabinet in Japan under Suzuki. According to Toshikazu Kazi (Foreign Ministry), the objective of the Suzuki cabinet was to "take Japan out of the war". Marquis Kido, the Lord Privy Seal, is then interviewed to state that the Minister of War tried to override objections from many junior officers about surrender, with senior officers considering the prospect of direct negotiations with the western allied countries "out of the question".

    In early May, Truman reiterated his position of "Unconditional Surrender", which derailed any hopes that people like Mcloy had nursed about keeping the Mikado.

    So, the Japanese opened negotiations with the Russians, whom they were ostensibly neutral with.

    It looks very much like the Russians stalled these negotiations so that they could fulfil Stalin's earlier promise to come into the Pacific War three months after the surrender of Germany.

    At Potsdam, Truman tells Stalin about the Bomb, but does not get the expected reaction of incredulous co-operation. Stalin simply nods and goes onto the next item on the agenda. We know now that this reaction was because he already knew about atomic weaponry.

    So, Okinawa winds down, and the Japanese foreign minister is desperately trying to meet with the Russians.

    Two days before Hiroshima, Molotov turns the Japanese away again.
    August 6th and the Bomb is dropped.....Toshikazu Kazi calls it "Totally unnecessary, because negotiations were underway"

    August 8th and Molotov finally agrees to an audience, but bluntly tells the Japanese that as of August 9th, Russia and Japan will be at War.

    Nagasaki is Bombed. The cabinet want to end the war. The Army does not, with the Navy somewhere in between. The Emperor has to interven to break the deadlock, telling the gathered dignitaries that he will make a speech to the people on the next day. Army junior officers break into the Imperial Palace to attempt to steal the recording but they can't find it.


    Conclusions?

    The bomb might not have happened at all if Roosevelt had not died. Harry Truman upset negotiations with "plain language". The Bomb was dropped to end the war quickly so that the Russians could not get into the Pacific, but they did anyway.

    Army factions had only planned on a brief stand at whatever beach the allies landed at, and then surrender. Again, America was not aware of this.

    Taking up John J. Mcloys suggestion might well have removed the need to drop the bomb as well. If the Army and IJN hotheads had known that they could keep the Emperor, and with a 'demonstration' of exactly what the bomb could do, its fairly certain, or at least Mcloy and Toshkazu Kazi are, certain that Japan would have surrendered anyway.

    That Bomb was dropped because grown men on both sides, including the Russians, could not be clear with eachother as to exactly what they wanted, with the Russians in particular dragging out negotiations simply to get in on the spoils of the Pacific War.
    Russian knowledge of the Bomb the whole time also sheds light on a possible sinister intention...they dragged the negotiations out so that America would be the first to use the damned thing in anger.....that seems to be a far more sinister and logical reason for their actions....

    Terrible. What a senseless waste of lives.

    And all centered around...Emperor Worship...the very topic of this thread
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2020
  13. belasar

    belasar Court Jester

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    Remind me again, what terms was Stalin offering to Germany?
     
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  14. von Poop

    von Poop Waspish

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    Japan was the aggressor in every C20th conflict it was involved in.
    It killed millions in the cause of a militaristic expansionist death cult.
    Its attempts to find an 'honourable' surrender were frankly laughable, and for every day they dragged their feet & pretended that they somehow deserved to be treated with respect, yet more died in PoW camps & occupied areas.

    Internal reports of the Emperor's views are exceptionally hard to trust because of that cult aspect. Even now the Japanese find it difficult to place the Emperor in any dim light at all, with the interesting contradiction thrown in that his actual power among the decision makers had been ebbing for years.

    Russia would never have any real interest in negotiations either, having suffered the military indignity of 1905 & already feeling the Cold War building it knew that Japan was not somewhere they could likely succeed with in 'sphere of influence' terms.

    A 'brief stand'... What is the point in even that other than a brutal & pathological attempt to satisfy honour. And what relevance can it have to negotiations or opposition planning if a secret. 'We'll only fight you for a bit' is hardly a reliable indication of the humility required to surrender with some dignity intact after years of such disgraceful & untrustworthy behaviour.

    It's quite fashionable to imply the bombs could have been avoided, but so much hindsight is required to construct a reasonable case for it. Japan was lucky to even have a chance of surrender - it chose not to offer it immediately in a bizarre attempt to save face, & paid the grim price.
    So many more had already paid a price at their hubristic, senseless, wasteful, hands.

    Australian soldiers after their release from Japanese captivity in Singapore, 1945.jpg
     
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  15. bronk7

    bronk7 Well-Known Member

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    ...it's not like the Japanese civilians would be equal to a German Panzer Army Group
     
  16. Christopher67

    Christopher67 Member

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    Let me state now that I'm not personally suggesting that the Damned Device should not have been dropped at all...

    What I am suggesting is that FDR died at a time when a change of leader most probably was not the best thing for relations between the Allies. That's something nobody had control over...

    I'm also suggesting that Stalin was deliberately stalling negotiations for the specific reason to watch the United States drop the darned device in anger. Stalin was a wily politician, and "who fired first" meant everything to him and the political cronies that gathered around him.

    darn it....I don't trust Soviet politics any more than the next well informed westerner about the real nature of the Stalin regimw.

    All this leftist hoo ha means nothing to me.
     
  17. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    As is often forgotten, these were not negotations for peace. They were back door peace feelers to see what they US would offer. Further, they were done by Japanese whom had little political power, thus there whatever terms were gotten, would not be enforcible or acted upon. No Japanese with any real political clout to end the war participated or had knowledge of such peace feelers.

    The negotiations did not necessarily have to be secret. However, they did have to be done by Japanese with the political power to end the war...Alas, this did not happen.

    FDR thought he could win over Stalin with his personality, "noblesse oblige" as FDR said. Unfortunately, with the defeat of Germany, the "price" of Soviet "help", as well as the amount needed, was being called into question. Hence, a harder line with the Soviets was being taken when they failed to live up to their agreements. It was no longer being swept under the rug, overlooked, or whitewashed. Truman had no intention of giving away the farm, as many thought FDR had.

    The problem with offering to keep Hirohito, was that many wanted to see him tried as a war criminal(which he was). Better to have the victorious Allies in Tokyo magnamously allow him to stay, as opposed to America agreeing to a demand from "victorious" Japan.

    Alsob a "demonstration" was a non-starter. The detonators were the weak point here. While, it was known that the Bomb would make a tremendous explosion, in the last test drop before Hiroshima the detonators failed to function(they emitted a large puff of smoke when activated) and in the last drop there was no smoke. So, telling the Japanese about a demonstration and not having an explosion would set back the Allied cause tremendously.


    Unfortunately, the Japanese were not looking to surrender "in good faith." if they were doing that, they would have dealt with the US directly.

    What Japan's interest was not to surrender immediately to end the war. They were looking for The Bigger Better Deal - How can they retain as much as possible, while giving up as little as possible. They thought they could get a better deal using the Soviets as middle men, than dealing with the US directly.


    How could negotiations "be underway", when the Soviets are refusing to see the Japanese diplomats? Negotiations were most certainly not underway, since they never really started in the first place. Further, should not the Japanese be negotiating with the US?

    Also, remember, negotiations were underway when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor.


    More too come, pressed for time.
     
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  18. belasar

    belasar Court Jester

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    In war you can only be as noble as your enemy will allow unless you are willing to jeopardize your own cause. The war came to a close only when the Emperor was no longer willing to have people die in his name. It did not end when her allies were defeated. It did not end when her armies were defeated, When her navy rested on the bottom of the ocean. It did not end with her people starving from lack of food by the American-Allied blockade It did not end when American bombers raised most Japanese cities to the ground. It did not end when it became unavoidably clear that a final cataclysmic American invasion was going to happen.

    I think it disingenuous to posit that had FDR lived the atomic bombs would not have been used. He authorized the development and spending to produce them and he felt more keenly the death of so many American lives to reach the point where they could be deployed. FDR was a wily and self aware politician who understood how the public would view any failure to use a weapon that cost so much treasure and blood.

    von Clauswitz wrote war is politics by other means, Stalin said one death a tragedy, a million deaths a statistic. Sherman said all war is hell. All military decisions have a political component embedded in them. How much will it cost you in blood and treasure. How long you will prolong it. How thorough a victory is required for the cost already paid. The harsh truth is that nations fight until one is no longer willing to allow pride to be the critical factor.
     
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  19. Christopher67

    Christopher67 Member

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    I have always liked forums, mainly because they offer other views of exactly the same information, based on opinions that are frequently from people that have more access or are better read...

    You guys have just proven both these things. That documentary was made in 1974, without all the information that we have now, and while the Cold War was still going strong.
    It gladdens my heart to see the old arguments so comprehensively pulled down.

    Take a bow, gentlemen!
     
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  20. von Poop

    von Poop Waspish

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    But doesn't it show what a brilliant documentary series it was, that it's still always worth watching, almost 50 years on from 1973.
    Lordy they timed it right.
     

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