Churchill at Normandy

file:///C:/Users/bhilburn/Downloads/BoggsonDogs.pdf

 

file:///C:/Users/bhilburn/Downloads/BoggsonDogs.pdf

 

Nuts!

 

Can I refer you to post #29

According to Brooke, Montgomery had never intended the order to apply to Churchill, but to US politicians, whose visits had delayed 1st US Army from its next operatiopn by a day. After Brooke's visit Montgomery signed a letter to the PM saying just that and inviting Churchill to drop in any time.

 

Which US politicians visited?
And what operation was delayed?

 

Henry Stimson's visit was mentioned as the cause of the delay of Operation Cobra, but from my spot checking all I can find was that the dismal weather produced conditions that held the commencement of operations for 4 days. The same weather system was also affecting Operation Goodwood and shipping in the English Channel as well.

 

Stimson was in Normandy by July 17th, days before Cobra was supposed to start, and a day before Monty launched Goodwood. So, it is highly doubtful that it was Cobra. The Battle of St. Lo was ongoing, so it is likewise dubious that Stimson's visit delayed that, as those orders would already have been issued.

Perhaps, it was the fact that Stimson & Marshall were calling for Monty's replacement that caused him to issue such an order.

 

Well as Miss Davis said "He would wouldn't he?"

 

Yes it was more than likely the poor weather conditions was the culprit, and your suggestion that Stimson and Marshall were conspiring about Monty's removal could have merit. Now that's something else I have to research now. Thanks pal.

 

Thsnks Otto.

 

I wonder what happened to the dog? Perhaps the Brits could've shared some bully beef with the four legged hero.

 

What about the veracity of this story? Could a barking dog have shaken a landser such that he didn't shoot the Prime Minister?

 

If there was a soldier who was a sniper in a tree near Monty's field HQ he must have already had ample opportunity to pot some senior Allied officers (including Monty himself) so why didn't he? Unless security was incredibly lax he can't have been waiting for Winston to come along! Call me an old sceptic if you like but I don't find the story credible

A shaggy dog story?

 

Sorry. Armies and Army group plans are worked in weeks not days. The First US Army was trying to break out from 3rd July. Eisenhower sent a prodding signal on 7th July and Monty held a conference on 10 July and shielded both Bradley and Dempsey from demands to change the plans. Stimson's visit in right in the middle of the operations that lead to Op Cobra.

Eisenhower's offer of a US armored Division for the British sector shows how little he understood about how the operations were expected to unfold, and did.

I don't know if Montgomery was aware that Marshall and Stimson were trying to get Montgomery replaced. However, in retrospect it was a dumb and counter productive move. The operations delivered by the team in place were about as successful as possible.

 

Exactly.

3 July effectively began the first real attempt by FUSA to execute a multi-corps attack in succession by the VIII (3 July), VII (4 July), and XIX Corp (7 July), which was probably not the best way to do it. By 9 July the disappointing results led to a conference at FUSA where Bradley - or someone on his staff - conceived of using a heavily-reinforced VII Corps in conjunction with heavy air bombardment to conduct a break-in of the German position, mirroring a similar concept presented by Montgomery at the conference on 10 July. By 12 July, the FUSA plan was complete and presented to the corps commanders. IIRC about the same time so was the British Second Army plan for GOODWOOD.

Stimson arrived in London from Africa on 11 July. He spoke with Ike by phone on 12 July and dined with him at SHAEF HQ at Teddington on 13 July. Either in the phone conversation or at dinner Stimson pressed Ike to allow him to visit Bradley's HQ in France, and Ike finally gave in after consulting with Bradley, who asserted he would "take care of this particular visitor without embarrassment" (Eisenhower to Montgomery, Mss. 1840, July 17, 1944). Stimson's visit occurred on 17 July, he visited FUSA HQ, meeting Bradley, Huebner, and Patton. They visited a hospital, a temporary cemetery, and had lunch, the whole visit ending that afternoon, when Stimson returned to London.

Bradley made good on his promise to Ike: Stimson was not allowed to visit Monty or the British sector. Nor was his visit "right in the middle of the operations" leading to COBRA. VIII Corps had already secured the right flank of VII Army by seizing Mont Castre and the Montgardon Ridge by 8 July, XIX Corps seizure of St Lo and closing up to the St Lo-Periers highway was a forgone conclusion on 17 July, and V Corps had secured Hill 192 on 12 July.

The fall of St Lo on 19 July was the last prerequisite, so it could not have occurred simultaneously with GOODWOOD and there is little evidence it was ever planned to...the heavy air commitments to both precluded that possibility anyway. Nor did the weather then cooperate on 20 and 21 July, it was not until 23 July that the weather forecast looked good enough for a 24 or 25 July jump off.

Not sure what that remark is in aid of, but in any case Eisenhower well understood the importance of not jogging the elbows of his commanders with visits by politicians. It was Eisenhower, not Montgomery, who ordered Churchill's visit confined to motoring to "OMAHA Beach and sail along the British beaches, but could notvisit Montgomery's headquarters", Churchill - and too many others - assumed it was Montgomery that forbade it. Even Brooke assumed it was at Monty's behest, but Ike's caable to Monty (referenced above) clearly makes Ike the culprit.

I agree, and I suspect most of that tale is apocryphal. Tedder was probably doing more at this time to undermine Monty than any American general. Somewhere I have the file on the 10 July FUSA meeting, which ISTR was cordial and productive.

 

Thanks for the input Rich, it goes a long way in clarifying the matter.