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How many foreigners flew in the R.A.F during world war II?

Discussion in 'WWII General' started by FrenchieAtwar, Jan 20, 2021.

  1. FrenchieAtwar

    FrenchieAtwar New Member

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    In the book 'The great show" by Pierre Closterman (3rd ace of the R.A.F) i was suprised to see that the R.A.F was very multicultural. For exemple the 602 "city of glasgow" squadron, between 1943-44, had an effectif of New-Zealanders, Free french, Canadians and South africans and (of course!) a dozen of Scottish.

    I would like to know how many foreigners flew in the R.A.F during the war, and i am not refering to commonwealth nation such as Canada, SA, NZ and australia (and much more!) since it's not that hard to find the number... but rather allied nation such as France, Poland, Czecoslovakia, Belgium, Holland, Norwegia/danemark, Greeks etc.. so does anyone has a broad list of the effectif of each nation?

    Tryin to find the exact number was quite a challenge since a lot of Allied pilot served in anglophone R.A.F squadrons , for exemple Pierre closterman briefly served in the Francophone 341° squadron and spend most of his career in Anglophone squadrons, so it was not un-common to see foreigners being wing commander in British squadrons.

    I would gadly accept any sources and research. (and i am french so if i've made some grammar mistake, please let me know!)
     
  2. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Not a specialist on the various countries but just count the countries that the Germans occupied-the pilots left to west, first France and then to Britain. The Poles of 303 Squadron were the most successful in the fight of BoB but they were mad about the invasion of their country. Not saying the Brits did not fight for their country with all they got. Respect. Anyway someone can give you the spesific details. There were also US volunteers. We had Hungarian, British etc volunteers in the Winter War. Weird how young men feel the distant battle as their thing and would die for the cause.
     
  3. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    There are also films about the foreign pilots in the RAF although a bit dated. I will check at least one.

    " Dark blue world " about Czech pilots in BoB. Clips in the youtube for sure.
     
  4. FrenchieAtwar

    FrenchieAtwar New Member

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    thank for the posting i also find this numbers

    thanks to wikipedia i saw that 19,000 Polish pilot flew in the RAF (for 1800 KIA) and 1,900 tp 2,1000 belgians flew in the RAF (for around 200 to 400 KIA )
     
  5. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    One of the most intriguing characters, for me anyway, was William E. G.Taylor, Comdr., USN.

    He was an Eagle Squadron Leader before being returned to the US to help the military figure out how to use radar. His input was vital to the Air Information Center, where Lt. Kermit Tyler famously said "Forget it" when the Opana Point radar installation noted a large formation of aircraft coming south on Dec. 7th, 1941. Taylor had been teaching the US Fleet about radar use and was loaned to the Army to get the AIC up and running. Squabbling between various Army officers prevented it from being fully manned that fateful morning.
     
  6. R Leonard

    R Leonard Member

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    William E. G. Taylor entered flight training in July 1926 and was designated Naval Aviator # 4407 in March 1927. Was appointed Ensign, USNR and assigned to VF-5 flying Curtiss F6C-3s. Was released from service, having served out his active duty obligation.

    He resigned his USNR commission to accept a 2d Lieut commission in the USMCR, serving as and instructor at Pensacola. He was promoted to1st Lieut and sent to command the USMCR unit at Squantum, Mass. He was then assigned to Gross Isle, Mich where his time was devoted to recruiting at colleges. In June 1933 he was released from service in a reduction in force.

    He obtained a position with United Airlines as a pilot on the Chicago-New York-Chicago run and held that position until 1936 when he quit to form his own travel agency.

    In August 1939, he was in London and decided to see about joining thr Royal Navy's Fleet Air Arm. After resigning his USMCR commission he was appointed a Sub-Lieut in the RNVR and, after a stint at fighter school and carrier qualifying aboard HMS Argus, he was assigned to 804 squadron flying Gloster Sea Gladiators. Aboard HMS Glorious he saw action over Norway. His squadron left the ship shortly before Glorious’ disastrous encounter with the Scharnhorst.

    In the summer of 1940, he was back in the US assisting in the purchase of up to date aircraft for the RN. He met Charles Sweeny and was offered command of 71 Squadron RAF, the Eagle Squadron.

    Reporting in October 1940, he found Squadron Leader Walter Churchill in command of the squadron. Churchill went out on sick leave in January and Taylor took command of the squadron. In August 1941, after being informed by Air Vice Marshall Leigh-Mallory that, at 36, he was too old to command a fighter squadron, he was released from the RAF for the purpose of transferring back to the USN which had asked for his services.

    He returned to the states and accepted a commission as a Lieut. Comdr. USNR. He was assigned the task of visiting the various ships that had had radar installed and discuss radar control of fighter direction. My father, back then a fighter pilot type ensign in VF-42, remembered his lectures/classes and the interception exercises they conducted in the midst of the Atlantic Neutrality Patrol from USS Yorktown, one of the first carriers to get radar, under his supervision. He was then sent to Hawaii, assigned to the CinCPac staff, charged with getting the island’s radar defenses up and running.

    Unfortunately, by 7 December 1941, the job was not yet complete. He remained in Hawaii until February 1942 when BuAer ordered his assignment to Project Roger at MIT, which was developing radar for night fighters. He was then put in command of Project Affirm at Quonset Point NAS for the development of the F4U-2 night fighter. Project Affirm was eventually split in half with the material end of the business at Patuxent NAS and Taylor, at Quonset Point, commanding the new Night Fighter Training Unit.

    In November 1944, he transferred to the staff of ComCarDiv 7 to coordinate the night fighter activities of the carriers Enterprise and Saratoga. In April 1945, he was detached from the staff and reassigned as Air Officer Naval Forces Northwest African Waters. From that position he was reassigned as Commanding Officer NAS Port Lyautey. He retired as a Captain in 1951 for medical reasons. After retirement he worked for Braniff Airlines and then joined Scandinavian Airways as their Voce President for Air Political Affairs. He retired in 1970 and died in 1992.
     
  7. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Was is just " Forget it!" Or were they expecting a group of B-17s to arrive anytime soon as well? Or did any B-17s arrive, actually ever or other bombers? The radar contact has been discussed in several sources just like what is the difference between OKH and OKW in 50+ pages in several books. More confusing than making it clear to be honest.

    Nothing to do this except the confusion. Finnish air photos showed massive Soviet troop concentrations and artillery summer 1944. The photos were seen by the Finnish top ranking officers and said " It is nothing" again and again. No, only major offensive.

    But the question is about the bombers. One answer and back to RAF.
     
  8. Takao

    Takao Ace

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    The B-17s were expected, and began arriving shortly, a little after 8AM, after the attack began.
     
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  9. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    Heres something...
    [​IMG]
    By Miller (P/O), Royal Air Force official photographer - Belgian pilots of No. 609 Squadron RAF

    [​IMG]
    Canadian pilots from No. 1 Squadron RCAF, photographed in October 1940
    [​IMG]
    Pilots of No. 312 (Czechoslovak) Squadron RAF
    [​IMG]
    Polish pilots of No. 303 Squadron
    [​IMG]
    William Meade Fiske, the first American pilot to be killed




    Non-British personnel in the RAF during the Battle of Britain

    Nation Number Ref
    [​IMG] Australia 26–32 [2][5]
    [​IMG] Barbados 1 [2]
    [​IMG] Belgium 28–30 [2][5]
    [​IMG] Canada 112 [2]
    [​IMG] Czechoslovakia 84–88 [2][5]
    [​IMG] Free France 13–14 [2][5]
    [​IMG] Ireland 10 [2]
    [​IMG] Jamaica 1 [2]
    [​IMG] New Zealand 127–135 [2][4]
    [​IMG] Newfoundland 1 [2]
    [​IMG] Northern Rhodesia 1 [5]
    [​IMG] Polish Republic 145-146 [1][2][3]
    [​IMG] South Africa 22–25 [2][5]
    [​IMG] Southern Rhodesia 3–4 [2][5]
    [​IMG] United States 9–11 [

    Differences as to who came in as a Sgt, Flt Sgt or Pilot Officer...

    Wiki
     
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  10. CAC

    CAC Ace of Spades

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    [​IMG]
    Should be a good book on Australians during the Battle of Britain.

    ‘In telling the stories of some of the Australians who flew in the Battle of Britain, Kristen Alexander has combined academic rigour with compelling personal detail. She has demonstrated that the ‘unknowns’ of the Battle are as fascinating as those who gained celebrity status. This is a book for those who know much about what happened in 1940 and those who don’t.’

    – Geoff Simpson, Trustee, Battle of Britain Memorial Trust
     
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  11. Martin Bull

    Martin Bull Acting Wg. Cdr

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    I'm sorry that I can't answer the original question ( surely there must be a figure somewhere ? ).

    But, just to take RAF Bomber Command as an example, there were many 'foreigners' on active service. Of course, Britain had the Commonwealth, so there were numerous men from Australia, Canada, New Zealand, South Africa, Rhodesia, India, Ceylon, the West Indies...then there were French, Belgian,Polish, Czech Norwegian, Dutch....and Jews born in Germany......plus others I've forgotten to include.

    Many memoirs refer to the centre of London, during the build-up to D-Day, being truly 'multinational' with pubs full of different uniforms, accents, languages.....this is one reason why UK historians usually refer to 'the Allies' rather than 'we'.

    ( Sadly, today some people prefer to forget this including - very regrettably - politicians ).
     
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  12. OpanaPointer

    OpanaPointer I Point at Opana Staff Member WW2|ORG Editor

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    Lots of non-British people showed up to help defend the British Isles in non-flying roles.
     
  13. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    Those pilots and soldiers who fought the nazis on the Allied side had a nasty surprise if they were from an Eastern bloc country. They were arrested and sent to prison for years as "spies" when back home.
     
  14. FrenchieAtwar

    FrenchieAtwar New Member

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    "But, just to take RAF Bomber Command as an example, there were many 'foreigners' on active service. Of course, Britain had the Commonwealth, so there were numerous men from Australia, Canada, New Zealand, South Africa, Rhodesia, India, Ceylon, the West Indies...then there were French, Belgian,Polish, Czech Norwegian, Dutch....and Jews born in Germany......plus others I've forgotten to include."

    The french had Two handley hadlifax Squadron set in Elvington (the Tunisie and the Guyenne) who lost half of their crew (KIA/WIA/MIA/POW) in 2 years of campaigns (of whom my great grandfather from my grandmother side, who was a rear machine gunner who nearly lost half his face in a 88 explosion)

    i also like the fact that between 40 to 45% of the casualties of the bomber command were from other countries, the British lost 38,000 pilots out of 55k the other rest were largely canadians, Australians and NZ but also poles, czecs and French
     
  15. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    In a way I find it strange that for years the U-boat losses of 40,000 was considered a massive loss. And now what do we say about 55,000 losses when compared.
     
  16. FrenchieAtwar

    FrenchieAtwar New Member

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  17. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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  18. FrenchieAtwar

    FrenchieAtwar New Member

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    i think it's beacause of the fact that the U-Boats lost 70% of their initial effectif, whereas the RAF bomber command lost 40% (73,000 (50,000 KIA due to combat, 9,000 POW, 9000 due to accident during O.T) of it's initial effectif (73,000 out of 165,000)
     
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  19. Kai-Petri

    Kai-Petri Kenraali

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    I think you might be right. Both had massive losses but the U-boat losses turned into a disaster after the "good times". Kriegmarine enigma was opened, the radar developed to find the u-boats by bombers, new weapons were developed to destroy the u-boats who were after the convoys.
     

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