Welcome to the WWII Forums! Log in or Sign up to interact with the community.

British bombers mine the Yangtse River 13/5/1945?

Discussion in 'Information Requests' started by davidbfpo, Aug 22, 2020.

  1. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2020
    Messages:
    37
    Likes Received:
    13
    A few days ago I found a British military historian, Professor Ashley Jackson, had written a short article on how VJ-day was celebrated, which includes for me this discovery:
    Link: Victory over Japan Day: Celebrating the end of World War II | Feature from King's College London

    Having never heard of this action I was intrigued and post a thread on your sister website ww2talk.com asking did the collective knowledge and wisdom here know about this British bombing of mainland China, on target(s) along the Yangtse River? British bombers mine the Yangtse River 13/5/1945?

    That has lead to an exchange, a gain in knowledge, but nothing on the actual British action mining the Yangste or Yangtze River.
    [​IMG]
    Anyone here - as bombing in China was mainly a USAAF operation - know about British bombers being involved?
     
  2. R Leonard

    R Leonard Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2003
    Messages:
    1,128
    Likes Received:
    780
    Location:
    The Old Dominion
    Don't know about any RAF or FAA mining activities . . . doesn't mean they didn't, just means I've no ready info on same. I do know that the B-24s of the 308th Heavy Bombardment Group (USAAF) were merrily involved with mining of the Yangtze during May 1945, including the 13th.
     
  3. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2020
    Messages:
    37
    Likes Received:
    13
    R. Leonard,

    It is a puzzle and until the original author responds we simply do not know. If you have checked the "sister" website thread one member (Harry Ree) has posted the following:

    On 13 May 1945 however 5 B-24s from the 14th AF (which would be 308th BG) are recorded as having dropped mines in the Yangtze. USAAF Chronology:

    Oddly the USN records this mission a month earlier:
    From: https://www.bsb-muenchen.de/mikro/lit2461.pdf

    Another US document refers to the 13th May 1945: https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc283775/m2/5/high_res_d/5_1945.pdf

    Is there any significance to the phrase 'planes attached to the 373rd Bomb Squadron' and not planes from the squadron? Could it be that the RAF attached B24 Liberators or is that a standard phrase used in the USAAF for a squadron to have other squadron's aircraft on attachment?
     
  4. R Leonard

    R Leonard Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2003
    Messages:
    1,128
    Likes Received:
    780
    Location:
    The Old Dominion
    I see nothing in the CinCPac Greybooks message files regarding mining of the Yangtze, indeed, USN and RN Pacific units were fairly busy elsewhere in May 1945. So, I would take that to also include TF-75, the British Pacific Fleet.

    I attach no significance whatsoever to the term “. . . planes attached to . . .” as it is typical phrasing one finds in military/naval reporting. I suggest that if you were seize on that as a potential for the presence of RAF aircraft you would be chasing a ghost.

    Your best bet is to start your inquiry by looking for RAF heavy bomber units that may have been stationed within range to conduct that sort of mission, somewhere in the CBI Theater. Then check the units/squadrons you find to see if they conducted mining operations. Not particularly my field, but I’ve never heard of any such . . . more than willing to be proved wrong. If you come up empty handed in your search, then that would settle the question.
     
  5. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2020
    Messages:
    37
    Likes Received:
    13
    I have looked at two RAF long range bomber squadrons and their records show them engaged elsewhere. Both flew B-24 Liberators, at least one had a 3k range by 1945.

    There is a USAAF reference to the RAF minelaying:
    From: Mines Away - The Significance of Army Air Force Minelaying in World War 2 by Major John S Chilstrom and on: https://media.defense.gov/2017/Dec/28/2001861720/-1/-1/0/T_CHILSTROM_MINES_AWAY.PDF

    There were several RAF squadrons in 231 Group and one source refers to them as:
    From: RAF Third Tactical Air Force | Wikiwand

    There are several sources that indicate the heavy bombers used were B-24 Liberators, I only cite two sources: https://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/documents/collections/74-AF-790-Consolidated-Liberator.pdf and SEAC Liberator Squadrons of the RAF

    I have no reference to operating over China in today's research, although there were a few Dakota flights over "the Hump".
     
  6. R Leonard

    R Leonard Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2003
    Messages:
    1,128
    Likes Received:
    780
    Location:
    The Old Dominion
    All far, far, outside my field of interest. Note my previous specifically noted “. . . stationed with range . . .” But since your focus seems to be on Liberators in RAF service perhaps conducting these Yangtze/Hankow mining missions and you’ve tossed in some candidates . . .

    No 99 Squadron – operated Liberators against targets in Malaya and Burma; based at Dhubalia in May 1945.

    No 159 Squadron – operated Liberators against targets in Burma, Malaya, Siam, the Dutch East Indies and other SE Asian areas, including mining missions, notably against Penang; based at Digri in May 1945.

    No 200 Squadron – operated Liberators apparently in a support role dropping supplies to guerilla forces in Malaya; based at Chennai in May 1945. Re-numbered as No 8 Squadron on 15 May 1944.

    No 215 Squadron – operated Liberators against targets primarily over Burma; based at Tulihal in May 1945, and, there, mostly in a transport/support capacity

    No 355 Squadron – operated Liberators against targets primarily over Burma and Siam; based at Salboni, Bengal in May 1945.

    No 356 Squadron – operated Liberators against targets generally over SE Asia; based at Salboni in May 1945.

    No 357 Squadron – operated Liberators, Dakotas, and Lysanders in primarily support operations generally over SE Asia; based at Jessore in May 1945, with detachments at Meiktila and Mingaladon.

    No 358 Squadron – operated Liberators in primarily support operations generally over SE Asia; based at Jessore in May 1945. 358 did fly one bomber mission against Mandalay, on 13 Jan 1945.

    All information quite easily found with some judicious googling.

    Have you looked at a map? For me, a quick look at a map will show that the stations mentioned are just a bit far for any mission near or at Hankow, or to find that easier, the infamous Wuhan, if one expected to return. Loaded with enough to do any good even makes one way look very ominous – Dhubulia to Hankow about 1660 miles; from Salboni , about 1750 miles; Jessore, about 1630 miles as examples – and just what might be the combat range of a Liberator? And how many hours is that, one way? I don't think they could do that. Seems to me that if an RAF squadron, necessarily resorting to leaping and bounding across the Chinese countryside, from base to base to take on fuel, loaded down with mines or even, if shackles and such could be made to match up, “borrowing” some mines from a USAAF base with striking distance, completing the mission, then leaping and bounding back to a base in West Bengal would make for an often repeated tale with lots of breathless, golly gee whiz, exciting detail. And let us remember that every take off and landing is an accident looking for a place to happen. But what we have is a steady silence. Further-more, what would have been the point if there were already USAAF squadrons fully capable of, and already conducting, such missions. You don't get bragging rights for going to ridiculous extremes to accomplish what someone else is already doing with far less effort.

    I have also followed your thread on our sister site and it seems most respondents there are drawing the same conclusion . . . no such RAF mission. There are numerous studies and reports on mining operations against the Japanese. Oddly enough I’ve read most of them as they mostly to do with mining of Japanese home waters, thus I left off their citation. You’ve even pointed to some of them, but the existence of these documents is somewhat beside the point if they do not discuss your specific mission. Anyone with an inkling on the war in the Pacific knows of the massive mining effort put forth by the USAAF. For example, my previously cited CinCPac Greybook Messages Volume 6, which covers your period of interest, shows 55 mentions of the word “mining” and a quick look through shows but about 15 of them specifically mentioning targets on mainland China coastal areas . . . Shanghai and Hong Kong predominate. And of course Hankow is nowhere near the coast. Most all the others reference mining missions in the Japanese home waters or discuss plans thereto.

    Hate to say it, and I mean you no offense, but you are chasing a ghost. I think your good professor is mistaken . . . it happens all the time. I can easily point to otherwise reputable professors and authors, some to whom we all refer when searching for information, but who have made demonstrably, and sometimes outlandish, mistakes.
     
  7. Takao

    Takao Ace

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2010
    Messages:
    10,103
    Likes Received:
    2,574
    Location:
    Reading, PA
    Normally, they could not. But, the British in the CBI modified their Liberators to operate at extreme distances - up to 3,700 miles with 4 mines. The bombers were stripped down to essential equipment only and the only guns carried were in the tail turret. They also carried less crew, doubling or tripling the work load for each crewman.

    The longest flight, time wise, was 24 hours 10 minutes - with flight times of 18 - 20 hours were flown regularly.

    However, I cannot fathom a reason to be operating far out of their AO.
     
  8. R Leonard

    R Leonard Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2003
    Messages:
    1,128
    Likes Received:
    780
    Location:
    The Old Dominion
    I stand with head bowed :oops:

    On the other hand, it was, indeed, far out of their AO . . . and with my usual disclaimer of the subject matter being far out of my usual haunts, the RAF mining missions, to my limited knowledge, were mostly confined to the SE Asia areas.
     
  9. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2020
    Messages:
    37
    Likes Received:
    13
    Thank you both. Yes, this quest maybe forlorn. My personal gain was to learn how effective the use of mines had been, I'd read a little about the success of USN submarines.
    So awaiting the Professor's response adieu.
     
  10. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2020
    Messages:
    37
    Likes Received:
    13
    No reply from the author of the original information alas; Professor Ashley Jackson. :(
     
  11. Takao

    Takao Ace

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2010
    Messages:
    10,103
    Likes Received:
    2,574
    Location:
    Reading, PA
    Shame, it would have been an interesting footnote in the CBI air campaign if proven true.
     
  12. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2020
    Messages:
    37
    Likes Received:
    13
    Just looked back at the opening post and Professor Jackson's passage comes in two parts:
    ’.
    So this RAF activity involved mines laid in the Yangtse River and bombing a strategic railway (possibly near a bridge or ferry across the river? So more than eight RAF bombers, unless they dropped mines on the railway!

    Tried the Professor's phone, no reply or ansaphone on; so will try an email again.
     
  13. davidbfpo

    davidbfpo Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2020
    Messages:
    37
    Likes Received:
    13
    I asked the Air Historical Branch for help recently and had this response:
    That I think closes the matter. It has been an interesting journey and with my thanks for members help.
     

Share This Page