Japan Was Already Beaten and Starving When We Dropped Nukes

I see that Takao responded to my last reply by simply ignoring the evidence I presented in my last reply. Let's just restate the facts: The militarists voted FOR surrender when it really counted, namely, in the second vote at the two imperial conferences and in the second vote in the two crucial cabinet votes after each of those two imperial conferences. If a single one of the hardliners had voted no, that would have blocked surrender. For that matter, if any of them had resigned, that would have toppled the government and forced the formation of a new cabinet, which, needless to say, would have stopped surrender dead in its tracks. We must keep in mind that militarists such as Anami and Umezu were under tremendous pressure from far more radical militarists who were colonels and majors not to give an inch.

I see that someone else argued that the Battle of Okinawa proves that Japan was not beaten and starving by April 1945. Seriously? Even a weakened and hungry army can do great damage if you are dumb enough, as Buckner was, to send your troops straight into the teeth of that army's heavily fortified--and artillery ranged--defensive position. Even then, for every one American who died, 10 Japanese died. The battle was a slaughter that saw virtually the entire Japanese force on the island get wiped out.

Furthermore, we didn't even need to be invading Okinawa. We should not have bothered with the island in the first place. The only reason we decided to take Okinawa was to have a closer launch point for the planned invasion of Japan. But by April 1945, there was clearly no need to invade Japan. By April 1945, we were aware of Japanese peace feelers. But Truman refused to follow up on any of them, not even when he learned weeks before Hiroshima that the emperor himself wanted to surrender. Truman refused to even open a back-channel dialogue with the Japanese to seek a negotiated surrender. It was obvious even then that the Japanese would most likely surrender if we would just grant the one condition that the emperor would not be deposed.

 

I think the speech made to the Japanese people by Emperor Hirohito in August of 1945 spells out exactly WHY the government of Japan was surrendering.....

It reads in part....

"But now the war has lasted nearly four years. Despite the best that has been done by everyone- the gallant fighting of our military and naval forces, the diligence and assiduity of our servants of the state, and the devoted service of 100,000,000 people - the war situation has developed not necessarily to Japan's advantage, while the general trends of the world have all turned against her interest.
Moreover, the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb, the power of which to do damage is, indeed, incalculable, taking the toll of many innocent lives. Should we continue to fight, it would not only result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation, but it would also lead to the total extinction of human civilization.

(And further down the page of the speech....)

Such being the case, how are we to save the millions of our subjects, nor to atone ourselves before the hallowed spirits of our Imperial ancestors? This is the reason why we have ordered the acceptance of the provisions of the joint declaration of powers.

We are keenly aware of the inmost feelings of all of you, our subjects. However, it is according to the dictates of time and date that we have resolved to pave the way for a grand peace for all generations to come by enduring the unendurable and suffering the insufferable.

Having been able to save face and maintain the structure of the Imperial state, we are always with you, our good and loyal subjects, relying on your sincerity and integrity.


I think it's fairly obvious that those two bombs gave such a powerful SHOCK to any notion of a national Kamikaze Divine Wind defence. The Emperor realised that invasion wasn't even necessary. All the Americans had to do was drop one device after another. The Japanese cabinet were not aware of how many weapons the United States posessed, and were unwilling to put it to the test.

The Soviet invasion had kyboshed any chance of a negotiated settlement using Soviet contacts, and that became VERY plain fact on August 9th, in addition to the destruction of Nagasaki.

So, the Bomb played it's part, and whether you like to believe it or not, the Emperor acknowledged the very futility of further fighting, principally by noting well the destructive potential of The Bomb, and the absolute idiocy of continuance of resistance when faced with the potential of one city after another being destroyed at very little cost or effort for the United States military.

Here endeth the sermon

 

Remember too, that the planners for Operation Olympic/Coronet were themselves unaware of the results of the Manhattan Project.
The planning, therefore, was pushed forward with conventional forces in mind, and an atomic battlefield was not considered, due to the level of secrecy involved even from the planners in the United States military circles

 

Wasn't it Yamamoto himself saying he could do whatever for the first 6 months and after that it was all going down...

 

That would be a hard no.

Surrender for over a million Japanese really counted before, March, 1945. The militarists did not surrender, and the million + Japanese died as a result.

Surrender really counted for many more millions, also by March, 1945. The militarists did not surrender. As a result, these many millions lost their homes and/or livelihoods.

So, when the militarist eventually decided to surrender(after much of Japan was laid waste...Who did it really count for? It hardly seems to be the magnanimous decision that Mikey & his ilk are portraying as.

Now, if one of Mikey's sources is to be believed. The militarists surrendered because they had succeeded in prolonging the war until the Soviets could enter, thus serving as a counterbalance to the Americans in post-war Japan. However, this demolishes Mikey's theory that the Americans were responsible for Hiroshima & Nagasaki - Because, by prolonging the war, only the Japanese militarists are responsible for Hiroshima & Nagasaki.

Seriously Mikey? I would presume that even you would know that a weakened and hungry army is not a beaten army.

You said the Japanese were "beaten", but you have never proven this statement.

If the Japanese were "beaten", as you say, they would have agreed to surrender, not try and seek better terms.

Nor, was the onus on the Americans to offer surrender terms acceptable to the Japanese.
The only onus on the Americans was to offer surrender terms acceptable to the Americans.
In this case, as with Germany, unconditional surrender was the only acceptable term for the Americans.

 

And those of you that believe that a second bomb was not necessary, please consider that the United States military was demonstrating the fact that the first bomb was not an accidental occurrence, and that there was more where the first one came from.

According to the BBC documentary The World at War, "The Bomb", it was fully two days before the Japanese figured out what the bomb was and what it was capable of doing. The surrender should have come then, but political dithering and procrastination provided the perfect scenario for the same thing to occur, making it plain to everyone that Hiroshima was no fluke.

I personally feel that two bombs were absolutely necessary to bring the Japanese government and military out of its cloud cuckoo land and back to reality as to the possible consequences of further resistance.